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> Yes, crossing the border illegally is a crime. Criminals are detained. If you get arrested for a minor crime as an American citizen, you are also detained and

> Yes, crossing the border illegally is a crime. Criminals are detained. If you get arrested for a minor crime as an American citizen, you are also detained and separated from your family. Right. So you think that a child should suffer the trauma of being in an unknown place without their parents just because they dared to try to cross the border, (without committing any other crime). Ok. However I am sure you're able to see that i.e meddling in Venezuela as the Trump administration is doing is illegal, immoral and WILL produce more migrants. You can't have a policy that is very likely to result in more US-bound migrants, while at the same time being strongly for 'protecting borders'. Certainly not while maintaining any semblance of moral high-ground or legitimacy.

manigandham 7y ago
Respond to the argument please, don't assume what I say or think. Should has nothing to do with it. Yes, children suffer when enduring crime, war, and hunger all over the world. This is unfortunate but detainment happens because laws are enforced, just like when child services separates children from criminal parents. Sometimes children are used by people who are not actually their family members (common in the illegal drug trade) and sometimes they need medical assistance. In all cases, using software to speed up detainment and case processing would greatly help reunite children who may have been detained separately. The second part of your argument seems unrelated. Illegal immigration is still illegal and nothing causes as much emigration as a failed state. Venezuela and foreign policy is a separate topic.
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  > Sometimes children are used by people who are not actually their family members (common in the illegal drug trade) and sometimes they need medical assistance. Right, the keyword here is sometimes. Developing oppressive policies that punish a large number of children who are in fact with their legitimate parents is not a great way to structure society. It is generally accepted as being better to let a few guilty parties escape, rather than punishing innocent people. I am not saying it's an easy thing to solve, but just because something is hard doesn't give you the moral justification to start acting all authoritarian. > Venezuela and foreign policy is a separate topic. No, it's not, a lot of U.S. foreign policy has increased the flow of immigrants and thus resulted in the sort of policies we're seeing now. If that wasn't the case, it is unlikely there would have been such a strong push for as draconian policies regarding immigration as there currently is. That's like saying the US+EU destabilization of Libya, (and now Syria), have no bearing on the refugee flows to Europe from these countries. Of course they do. That in turn is then connected to rising Islamophobia and far-right activism. It's all connected, you can't look at these in isolation.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    They are not oppressive policies. They are the exact same policies that apply to citizens already for centuries. This is constantly being overlooked. Foreign policy increasing immigration does not make illegal immigration ok.
    - AsyncAwait 7y ago
      > Foreign policy increasing immigration does not make illegal immigration ok. No, but it does make you a giant hypocrite when you're complaining about a 'crisis at the border', while perusing policies that make such crisis more likely.
      - manigandham 7y ago
        No, you're still attacking my character instead of providing a logical argument. These are entirely different issues and I want strong border security regardless of foreign policy. Choosing to leave a country, choosing to go to America, and choosing illegal entry are several steps that an illegal immigrant actively takes which are disconnected from border security issues. Perhaps you should hold the governments and economies of those nations more responsible for their failure. Venezuela was doing fine before the socialist policies that bankrupted the nation.
        AsyncAwait 7y ago
        > No, you're still attacking my character I was actually talking about Trump and his rhetoric vs actions, which don't support his stated goal, however you apparently agree with him so I guess take it however you want. > These are entirely different issues and I want strong border security regardless of foreign policy. You keep saying that they're entirely different issues, but they're absolutely related. It's like if you get a cold because you went out in the winter in just a shirt and then saying that the cold you caught is unrelated to you not being warmly dressed. No, these are absolutely related. Just like the migrant crisis in the EU is related to its foreign policy blunders, so is the US crisis related to decades of meddling in Latin America. If you keep ignoring that, we can't move on. > Venezuela was doing fine before the socialist policies that bankrupted the nation. The situation is complex, yes. there's corruption, there's the issue of them having not diversified the economy away from oil, so when the price crashed in 2014, trouble started. Aggravating all this are the crippling U.S. sanctions, which are responsible for 40,000+ civilians not having the medicine etc. they need and dying as a result according to a recent study, the U.N. has also expressed that the sanctions mostly punish civilians and amount to a medieval siege. The notion that Venezuela was "doing fine" before Chavez/Maduro is laughable. The reason Chavez was elected in a free and fair election, was precisely because Venezuela was not doing fine for large swaths of people. There was widespread poverty and illiteracy, something that was slowly being eradicated before the 2014 crisis. You may want to read "Venezuela Before Chávez: Anatomy of an Economic Collapse", it analyzes the economic situation fairly in detail. "The Shock Doctrine" is excellent for how South America more widely was doing in these times. Not a pretty picture.

manigandham 7y ago

Respond to the argument please, don't assume what I say or think. Should has nothing to do with it. Yes, children suffer when enduring crime, war, and hunger all over the world. This is unfortunate but detainment happens because laws are enforced, just like when child services separates children from criminal parents. Sometimes children are used by people who are not actually their family members (common in the illegal drug trade) and sometimes they need medical assistance. In all cases, using software to speed up detainment and case processing would greatly help reunite children who may have been detained separately. The second part of your argument seems unrelated. Illegal immigration is still illegal and nothing causes as much emigration as a failed state. Venezuela and foreign policy is a separate topic.

AsyncAwait 7y ago
> Sometimes children are used by people who are not actually their family members (common in the illegal drug trade) and sometimes they need medical assistance. Right, the keyword here is sometimes. Developing oppressive policies that punish a large number of children who are in fact with their legitimate parents is not a great way to structure society. It is generally accepted as being better to let a few guilty parties escape, rather than punishing innocent people. I am not saying it's an easy thing to solve, but just because something is hard doesn't give you the moral justification to start acting all authoritarian. > Venezuela and foreign policy is a separate topic. No, it's not, a lot of U.S. foreign policy has increased the flow of immigrants and thus resulted in the sort of policies we're seeing now. If that wasn't the case, it is unlikely there would have been such a strong push for as draconian policies regarding immigration as there currently is. That's like saying the US+EU destabilization of Libya, (and now Syria), have no bearing on the refugee flows to Europe from these countries. Of course they do. That in turn is then connected to rising Islamophobia and far-right activism. It's all connected, you can't look at these in isolation.
- manigandham 7y ago
  They are not oppressive policies. They are the exact same policies that apply to citizens already for centuries. This is constantly being overlooked. Foreign policy increasing immigration does not make illegal immigration ok.
  - AsyncAwait 7y ago
    > Foreign policy increasing immigration does not make illegal immigration ok. No, but it does make you a giant hypocrite when you're complaining about a 'crisis at the border', while perusing policies that make such crisis more likely.
    - manigandham 7y ago
      No, you're still attacking my character instead of providing a logical argument. These are entirely different issues and I want strong border security regardless of foreign policy. Choosing to leave a country, choosing to go to America, and choosing illegal entry are several steps that an illegal immigrant actively takes which are disconnected from border security issues. Perhaps you should hold the governments and economies of those nations more responsible for their failure. Venezuela was doing fine before the socialist policies that bankrupted the nation.
      - AsyncAwait 7y ago
        > No, you're still attacking my character I was actually talking about Trump and his rhetoric vs actions, which don't support his stated goal, however you apparently agree with him so I guess take it however you want. > These are entirely different issues and I want strong border security regardless of foreign policy. You keep saying that they're entirely different issues, but they're absolutely related. It's like if you get a cold because you went out in the winter in just a shirt and then saying that the cold you caught is unrelated to you not being warmly dressed. No, these are absolutely related. Just like the migrant crisis in the EU is related to its foreign policy blunders, so is the US crisis related to decades of meddling in Latin America. If you keep ignoring that, we can't move on. > Venezuela was doing fine before the socialist policies that bankrupted the nation. The situation is complex, yes. there's corruption, there's the issue of them having not diversified the economy away from oil, so when the price crashed in 2014, trouble started. Aggravating all this are the crippling U.S. sanctions, which are responsible for 40,000+ civilians not having the medicine etc. they need and dying as a result according to a recent study, the U.N. has also expressed that the sanctions mostly punish civilians and amount to a medieval siege. The notion that Venezuela was "doing fine" before Chavez/Maduro is laughable. The reason Chavez was elected in a free and fair election, was precisely because Venezuela was not doing fine for large swaths of people. There was widespread poverty and illiteracy, something that was slowly being eradicated before the 2014 crisis. You may want to read "Venezuela Before Chávez: Anatomy of an Economic Collapse", it analyzes the economic situation fairly in detail. "The Shock Doctrine" is excellent for how South America more widely was doing in these times. Not a pretty picture.