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> There are lots of reasons that open borders might not be a good idea. I think few on the left are actually for 'open borders'. You generally need borders if

> There are lots of reasons that open borders might not be a good idea. I think few on the left are actually for 'open borders'. You generally need borders if you want some from of universal heath coverage for example, that's not disputed. The notion that 'open borders' is actually something a significant part of the left is for is a strawman. What is however problematic is treating illegal migrants in an inhumane way. You don't need to separate families and to hold children in cages, nor do you need Stasi like surveillance to protect your borders. Most are simple visa overstays entered legally anyway.

manigandham 7y ago
Families are separated when citizens commit crime. This is a vastly overblown issue that seems to be overtaken by emotions than any rational discourse. Also surveillance and other dynamic defenses are needed to keep a safe border. What would be the alternative?
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  > Families are separated when citizens commit crime. There have been reports of families being separated right as they cross the border. Is that the criminal act you're talking about? Because it in no way justifies separating families in my book. Also, deporting migrants who were in the US since they were 5, know no other country but the US and now they're being deported say 30 years later, when they have families here etc. is another example of an inhumane policy.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Yes, crossing the border illegally is a crime. Criminals are detained. If you get arrested for a minor crime as an American citizen, you are also detained and separated from your family. This is neither shocking nor unexpected. The other issue is far more complex. Obviously there must be a cutoff with some path to citizenship for those allowed to stay but this is why strong border security helps by preventing the issue in the first place.
    - amalcon 7y ago
      It's a misdemeanor, though, like speeding or public drunkenness. People are not arrested for speeding unless it's particularly egregious, and are not held for months over public drunkenness.
      - manigandham 7y ago
        You're only released or skip arrest if you will show up to court, something that's offered to citizens who have no/minor criminal records, no outstanding warrants, and a reasonable expectation of showing up. The situation is different with illegal immigrants.
        amalcon 7y ago
        Which part is different? - Do illegal immigrants with families mostly have significant existing criminal records in the destination jurisdiction? The ones that do should of course be treated more harshly, but most do not. - Do illegal immigrants with families mostly have outstanding warrants in the destination jurisdiction? The outstanding warrant should of course be honored in that case, but most do not. - Or are we imprisoning people for sometimes over a year, placing their children in (at best) the care of strangers, purely as a mechanism to ensure that they show up to court? Could you imagine the outcry if we did that for speeding?
        manigandham 7y ago
        They are not citizens so don't have the same rights and don't have a legal residence to be sent to so detainment is the only option, other than immediate deportation and skipping any case processing at all. And yes, even if you are a citizen and you get arrested, you will be separated from your family. If you have children, they will be placed in protective services. They do not go with you to jail. Whether you are arrested for speeding is explained in my prior post.
        amalcon 7y ago
- spamizbad 7y ago
  > Families are separated when citizens commit crime You're equivocating civil and criminal law. Illegal (re)-entry is a civil offense, as it's not directed against a person. Anyway, the controversy is specifically about the recently implemented Family Separation Policy[1] and the fact that the government claims it does not have the desire or ability to reunite families[2]. This is very new and what most people are outraged about. Especially since its being used as a political cudgel, as illegal immigration has been declining precipitously for well over a decade[3] with existing measures in place. The whole debate does have a tinge of irony: illegal European immigrants flooded across the Canadian border, to avoid quotas, after immigration reform passed in the early 20th century; their ancestors are now complaining about the same acts. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_se... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-r... [3] https://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/ https://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immi...
  - manigandham 7y ago
    That has no impact on the matter. American citizens who are arrested (regardless of civil or criminal cases) are detained. This administration is enforcing laws that have already been there. They also reprioritized families with children. Perhaps these pieces should explore just how many of these children are actually related to the group of adults they enter with. Detainment procedures are not as simple as you think. How is software that improves case processing time not a good thing in this situation? How can you know how many illegal immigrants are here? If you know where they are then they would be detained. They are not taking census. These are basically guesses, as stated right in that article.
  - pandaman 7y ago
    It is not a civil offense. It has civil penalties in addition to criminal ones. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  It's not overblown for four core reasons. 1. These families are often permanently separated. In the process of separation they do not keep any records or information needed to unite the families back together. I shouldn't need to offer a reason why this is incredibly barbaric. 2. These families are often denied due process of law. In addition to using legal gotchas to ensure even valid applicants violate the law such as moving ports of entry to ensure they have to illegally cross the border. 3. The conditions that these immigrants are held in are barbaric. Children are denied the care they need and are abused, assaulted etc because there is zero oversight on the detention centers. 4. You're literally giving up all of your privacy rights [1] for the sake of potentially catching a non-citizen. You're allowing the government to massively overstep it's authority and the end result is generally a Bad Thing for your own rights. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19815300 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19815300
burroisolator 7y ago
> You generally need borders if you want some from of universal heath coverage for example, that's not disputed. Do you mean that the US can't afford to give universal heath coverage to everyone if the entire world migrated in or is there another reason?
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  > Do you mean that the US can't afford to give universal heath coverage to everyone if the entire world migrated in Pretty much. I doubt much of Europe, who already do have universal coverage, would migrate, but there would still probably be too much migration at once to handle with an open borders policy if you wanted to give everyone coming in the same quality of care, (which of course you would).

manigandham 7y ago

Families are separated when citizens commit crime. This is a vastly overblown issue that seems to be overtaken by emotions than any rational discourse. Also surveillance and other dynamic defenses are needed to keep a safe border. What would be the alternative?

AsyncAwait 7y ago
> Families are separated when citizens commit crime. There have been reports of families being separated right as they cross the border. Is that the criminal act you're talking about? Because it in no way justifies separating families in my book. Also, deporting migrants who were in the US since they were 5, know no other country but the US and now they're being deported say 30 years later, when they have families here etc. is another example of an inhumane policy.
- manigandham 7y ago
  Yes, crossing the border illegally is a crime. Criminals are detained. If you get arrested for a minor crime as an American citizen, you are also detained and separated from your family. This is neither shocking nor unexpected. The other issue is far more complex. Obviously there must be a cutoff with some path to citizenship for those allowed to stay but this is why strong border security helps by preventing the issue in the first place.
  - amalcon 7y ago
    It's a misdemeanor, though, like speeding or public drunkenness. People are not arrested for speeding unless it's particularly egregious, and are not held for months over public drunkenness.
    - manigandham 7y ago
      You're only released or skip arrest if you will show up to court, something that's offered to citizens who have no/minor criminal records, no outstanding warrants, and a reasonable expectation of showing up. The situation is different with illegal immigrants.
      - amalcon 7y ago
        Which part is different? - Do illegal immigrants with families mostly have significant existing criminal records in the destination jurisdiction? The ones that do should of course be treated more harshly, but most do not. - Do illegal immigrants with families mostly have outstanding warrants in the destination jurisdiction? The outstanding warrant should of course be honored in that case, but most do not. - Or are we imprisoning people for sometimes over a year, placing their children in (at best) the care of strangers, purely as a mechanism to ensure that they show up to court? Could you imagine the outcry if we did that for speeding?
        manigandham 7y ago
        They are not citizens so don't have the same rights and don't have a legal residence to be sent to so detainment is the only option, other than immediate deportation and skipping any case processing at all. And yes, even if you are a citizen and you get arrested, you will be separated from your family. If you have children, they will be placed in protective services. They do not go with you to jail. Whether you are arrested for speeding is explained in my prior post.
        amalcon 7y ago
spamizbad 7y ago
> Families are separated when citizens commit crime You're equivocating civil and criminal law. Illegal (re)-entry is a civil offense, as it's not directed against a person. Anyway, the controversy is specifically about the recently implemented Family Separation Policy[1] and the fact that the government claims it does not have the desire or ability to reunite families[2]. This is very new and what most people are outraged about. Especially since its being used as a political cudgel, as illegal immigration has been declining precipitously for well over a decade[3] with existing measures in place. The whole debate does have a tinge of irony: illegal European immigrants flooded across the Canadian border, to avoid quotas, after immigration reform passed in the early 20th century; their ancestors are now complaining about the same acts. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_se... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-r... [3] https://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/ https://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immi...
- manigandham 7y ago
  That has no impact on the matter. American citizens who are arrested (regardless of civil or criminal cases) are detained. This administration is enforcing laws that have already been there. They also reprioritized families with children. Perhaps these pieces should explore just how many of these children are actually related to the group of adults they enter with. Detainment procedures are not as simple as you think. How is software that improves case processing time not a good thing in this situation? How can you know how many illegal immigrants are here? If you know where they are then they would be detained. They are not taking census. These are basically guesses, as stated right in that article.
- pandaman 7y ago
  It is not a civil offense. It has civil penalties in addition to criminal ones. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325
fzeroracer 7y ago
It's not overblown for four core reasons. 1. These families are often permanently separated. In the process of separation they do not keep any records or information needed to unite the families back together. I shouldn't need to offer a reason why this is incredibly barbaric. 2. These families are often denied due process of law. In addition to using legal gotchas to ensure even valid applicants violate the law such as moving ports of entry to ensure they have to illegally cross the border. 3. The conditions that these immigrants are held in are barbaric. Children are denied the care they need and are abused, assaulted etc because there is zero oversight on the detention centers. 4. You're literally giving up all of your privacy rights [1] for the sake of potentially catching a non-citizen. You're allowing the government to massively overstep it's authority and the end result is generally a Bad Thing for your own rights. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19815300 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19815300

burroisolator 7y ago

> You generally need borders if you want some from of universal heath coverage for example, that's not disputed. Do you mean that the US can't afford to give universal heath coverage to everyone if the entire world migrated in or is there another reason?

AsyncAwait 7y ago
> Do you mean that the US can't afford to give universal heath coverage to everyone if the entire world migrated in Pretty much. I doubt much of Europe, who already do have universal coverage, would migrate, but there would still probably be too much migration at once to handle with an open borders policy if you wanted to give everyone coming in the same quality of care, (which of course you would).