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The idea of nationality is pretty silly too.
by drb91 7y ago
The idea of nationality is pretty silly too.
- darawk 7y agoThat's certainly an opinion. I figure you'd have no trouble integrating into the local culture and customs of the tribes of Papua New Guinea, then?
- VvR-Ox 7y agoNot being nationalist or getting rid of all nations borders does not exclusively lead to you being forced to integrate into New Guinean Culture. Just because we don't do this nationalized small-minded shit we do right now, doesn't automatically mean we get rid of all roots, cultures, ideas, fears, wishes etc. of each "nation", "culture", whatever.
- darawk 7y agoDid you read the comment I was responding to? It sad "the idea of nationality is silly". Your response to me is a non-sequitur.
- ascar 7y agoCulture and nationality are not synonyms. In fact most countries have multiple cultures. Especially the US as a country of immigrants. Saying the idea of nationality is silly, isn't the same as saying culture is silly. Edit: changed "nationalism" for "nationality".
- darawk 7y agoPlease work on your reading comprehension. "Nationality", not "nationalism".
- ascar 7y agoSubstitute nationalism for nationality and my statement remains valid. The difference between the status of belonging to a nation and ones self-identification with ones nation is not relevant, if my point is that culture is not necessarily related to nations. No reason to become personal. Especially if you are wrong yourself.
- Veen 7y agoEspecially the US as a country of immigrants It is a country of immigrants with a diverse array of cultures. But culture and nation are not independent. There is a core set of principles and institutions that make the US a nation: the constitution, the bill of rights, representative democracy, separation of church and state, and so on. They are part of the culture of the US. However diverse the communities that live in the US are, they have to support the core ideas that make the US a nation. There are people in the world who do not support those ideas. It would be foolish to have too many of them within US borders.
- fzeroracer 7y agoHow, exactly, do Native American reservations and tribal sovereignty fit into your argument? Should they be 'deported' because they don't adhere to all of the core principles of the US?
- Veen 7y agoIt seems perverse to think of Native Americans as immigrants and a little prejudiced to assume they are opposed to representative democracy.
- fzeroracer 7y agoTo break things down step by step: You said and I will quote: > However diverse the communities that live in the US are, they have to support the core ideas that make the US a nation. There are people in the world who do not support those ideas. It would be foolish to have too many of them within US borders. I pointed out that many Native American tribes do not adhere or support many of the core ideals that make the US a nation, particularly considering the US as a nation was founded upon their bodies. You said it was foolish to have too many of those kind of people within the US border. Your argument essentially advocates for their removal. So should they be 'deported'?
- Veen 7y agoI too will break this down into little chunks. 1) The context of this discussion is immigration. 2) Native Americans are not non-citizen immigrants. They are US citizens. 3) Native Americans should not be deported for failing to support the core ideals of the US. This seems to me entirely obvious, but I'm happy to make it explicit. You have already alluded to the solution to Native American populations who do not support the US's core ideals: sovereign reservations.
- stevezsa8 7y agoI think you had a good point with your first sentence. It's always good to be aware that people have different opinions and views on certain things.
- drb91 7y agoWtf did forced integration come from? There’s cultural variation everywhere and it rarely corresponds with political borders (or happens as a consequence of it I suppose).
- darawk 7y agoWho said anything about forced integration? You suggested the idea of nationality was silly. If the idea of nationality has no salience, then there is no meaning to national identity and therefore integrating yourself into any other human civilization should be completely seamless.
- viivaux 7y ago>therefore Not really. In a whole number of ways. I actually have no idea how you can say this with any honesty. I mean, are you really arguing that national identity is the major stumbling block in integrating to a tribe in Papua New Guinea.... Here's a hint: Other :tribes: would have difficulty integrating, and they've likely never been introduced to the concept. Please explain to me how you're so confident while simultaneously so widely and clearly wrong.
- fzeroracer 7y agoIf we use the reverse of your logic, then being a national of X country means you should be able to integrate within any subcultures within that nation entirely seamlessly. For example, you should be able to walk into any Native American tribe and be able to seamlessly integrate yourself into their culture despite having zero background.
- zensavona 7y agoAnd I suppose any American should have no trouble integrating into the religious deep south culture?
- VvR-Ox 7y agoYes it is. If we don't solve this somehow in the next decades I think we'll be very sorry for that.
- dpwm 7y agoIt's worth noting that nationality is a tool that can be used to justify imperialism. Get enough people waving the flag and you can really take the quality of debate down a few levels.
- Veen 7y agoIt's also worth noting that nationality can bring people together in a common cause who would otherwise be divided by personal, family, religious, and local community concerns. The collapse of nations has caused havoc and suffering throughout history.
- ionised 7y agoAbsolutely. There are many aspects of our primitive selves we suppress or condition and educate against in order to have a better functioning society. Tribalism should be next on the list.