6 ms·

> Using child porn as a pretext to justify a puritanical purge of all erotic content is absolutely obnoxious IMO. And not what Tumblr did - their erotic conten

> Using child porn as a pretext to justify a puritanical purge of all erotic content is absolutely obnoxious IMO. And not what Tumblr did - their erotic content ban was under way before the CP snafu got them temporarily kicked out of the iOS App Store. Consensus is that it saves them from SESTA-FOSTA legal troubles.

threeseed 8y ago
How is it any different to Reddit though ? Plenty of porn subreddits around that could be used for sex trafficking particularly private ones.
- dageshi 8y ago
  The mods on porn subs generally abide and enforce the rules from what I've seen. Plus in sheer numbers terms there's a lot fewer subreddits than there were tumblr's, practically speaking you could actually have a team of people keeping an eye on subreddits in a way that would probably be impossible with tumblr due to sheer volume.
  - mrep 8y ago
    They are also quarantining a lot of subs that have content advertisers don't like and quarantined subs don't show ads AFAIK.
    - syntheticnature 8y ago
      No NSFW reddit subs show ads anymore, quarantined or otherwise: https://www.reddit.com/r/redditads/comments/bdwlin/update_to_nsfw_advertising_policy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/redditads/comments/bdwlin/update_to...
  - Bartweiss 8y ago
    > Plus in sheer numbers terms there's a lot fewer subreddits than there were tumblr's Fewer, and lower discoverability. If you ban a sub, the mods have to bother registering a new one, and if you ban the mods too I believe they'll need to 'break in' new accounts to do that. Once they do, it'll just be an empty sub sitting there passively until they promote it on other subs (where it'll draw reports) or on other sites (which is a hassle). And without active moderation, spam users destroy spam subs by overwhelming their intentional content. On tumblr, a new account just takes a new email, and they can be 'promoted' easily because following real users or reblogging their content with ads sends them notifications. It's pretty much the ideal structure for automation-friendly spam.
  - ReidZB 8y ago
    Reddit also has a policy of banning unmoderated NSFW subreddits: https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/a5xz9b/a_word_on_unmoderated_subreddits/ https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/a5xz9b/a_word_on_u...
FireBeyond 8y ago
Ironically, and as someone who doesn't really "get" Tumblr, this is also one of those big backfiring things too. No longer can you see a nipple on Tumblr (well, you can, but that seems like what they're going for in blocking content), but a few errant clicks can easily find you in hardcore Tumblr bestiality territory that's apparently survived unscathed.
j9461701 8y ago
>And not what Tumblr did - their erotic content ban was under way before the CP snafu got them temporarily kicked out of the iOS App Store. They got kicked off the app store in november, and moved to ban all porn in december. They might have been planning this all along, but I've seen no evidence for that.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  They were planning to remove adult content long before that, and the iOs ban largely served to speed up their timeline. At least, that's the story from some ex-staff who talked to Vox after the news broke: https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn-ban-verizon-ad-goals-sex-work-fandom https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn...
echelon 8y ago
Did SESTA-FOSTA actually accomplish anything? Do we have numbers to show that it put a stop to sex trafficking? Why was this legislation pushed through so quickly without any opposition like SOPA or PIPA? I don't get the "why". Who was behind this?
- sp332 8y ago
  It definitely made things worse. "New statistics shared by the San Francisco police show... sex trafficking shot up 170 percent in 2018." https://www.dailydot.com/irl/increase-sex-trafficking-sesta-fosta/ https://www.dailydot.com/irl/increase-sex-trafficking-sesta-... They claim it's just improved reporting because of increased outreach. "DiAngelo says she received calls from women who are suicidal because they’ve been forced to work on the streets and return to dangerous pimps." https://www.kalw.org/post/one-year-federal-law-curb-sex-trafficking-online-remains-controversial https://www.kalw.org/post/one-year-federal-law-curb-sex-traf... "Breyer estimated that there were about double or triple the usual number of workers seeking assistance." https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17306486/sex-work-online-fosta-backpage-communications-decency-act https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17306486/sex-work-online-f... "online private group chats where sex workers could share survival strategies and harm reduction techniques to stay safe have also disappeared" https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/anti-sex-trafficking-advocates-say-new-law-cripples-efforts-to-save-victims-629081/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/anti-s... (Banner image kinda NSFW) Here's an actual survey of sex workers in Seattle. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1KBsVBQh7EsRexAyZacaf_fUvvsVb2MR1Q30_gV7Jegc/edit#slide=id.g3b643c759f_0_50 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1KBsVBQh7EsRexAyZacaf... (results start on slide 7) And it's had effects internationally. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/sex-workers-in-australia-say-american-law-is-creating-devastating-losses-back-home/news-story/09139a2f0d631cd7284090d2336ca517 https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/sex-work...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- lenticular 8y ago
  Sex worker advocates were nearly united against SESTA/FOSTA. No one listened to them. This conflation of prostitution and sex trafficking has gotten really out of hand.
ImprovedSilence 8y ago
I always suspected that the ban was partly based on the fact that porn content was driving a ton of bandwidth that was not monetizable. Or at least not in any way the decision makers saw as feasible without getting into legal trouble...
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  That can be more than just suspicion - it was confirmed by insiders after the announcement. The ban had apparently been in the works for some time, and the iOs action just provoked them to move up the timeline. (Which also explains the decision to release an untrained system and let real users serve as alpha testers.) Oath apparently viewed the adult content as a nonstarter for monetization and a general threat to advertiser relationships. Since both the site's design and its massive engineering flaws meant adult content showed up anywhere, it was even driving advertisers away from not-necessarily-adult content like user feeds, and there was some concern it was even keeping user counts down. Of course, the entire plan here was nuts. Oath apparently wanted to double user counts by summer 2019, even though growth was effectively zero and there was no plan to fix that. They confused an adult content problem with a spam problem, and so the spam is still going strong. And the monetization outlook is genuinely hilarious: Oath intended to ban adult content as a step to monetizing the site's fandom and social justice communities. Apparently nobody noticed that the fandom stuff was the porn they were banning, or that a solid 20% of all users were going to be affected. https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn-ban-verizon-ad-goals-sex-work-fandom https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn...

threeseed 8y ago

How is it any different to Reddit though ? Plenty of porn subreddits around that could be used for sex trafficking particularly private ones.

dageshi 8y ago
The mods on porn subs generally abide and enforce the rules from what I've seen. Plus in sheer numbers terms there's a lot fewer subreddits than there were tumblr's, practically speaking you could actually have a team of people keeping an eye on subreddits in a way that would probably be impossible with tumblr due to sheer volume.
- mrep 8y ago
  They are also quarantining a lot of subs that have content advertisers don't like and quarantined subs don't show ads AFAIK.
  - syntheticnature 8y ago
    No NSFW reddit subs show ads anymore, quarantined or otherwise: https://www.reddit.com/r/redditads/comments/bdwlin/update_to_nsfw_advertising_policy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/redditads/comments/bdwlin/update_to...
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  > Plus in sheer numbers terms there's a lot fewer subreddits than there were tumblr's Fewer, and lower discoverability. If you ban a sub, the mods have to bother registering a new one, and if you ban the mods too I believe they'll need to 'break in' new accounts to do that. Once they do, it'll just be an empty sub sitting there passively until they promote it on other subs (where it'll draw reports) or on other sites (which is a hassle). And without active moderation, spam users destroy spam subs by overwhelming their intentional content. On tumblr, a new account just takes a new email, and they can be 'promoted' easily because following real users or reblogging their content with ads sends them notifications. It's pretty much the ideal structure for automation-friendly spam.
- ReidZB 8y ago
  Reddit also has a policy of banning unmoderated NSFW subreddits: https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/a5xz9b/a_word_on_unmoderated_subreddits/ https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/a5xz9b/a_word_on_u...

FireBeyond 8y ago

Ironically, and as someone who doesn't really "get" Tumblr, this is also one of those big backfiring things too. No longer can you see a nipple on Tumblr (well, you can, but that seems like what they're going for in blocking content), but a few errant clicks can easily find you in hardcore Tumblr bestiality territory that's apparently survived unscathed.

j9461701 8y ago

>And not what Tumblr did - their erotic content ban was under way before the CP snafu got them temporarily kicked out of the iOS App Store. They got kicked off the app store in november, and moved to ban all porn in december. They might have been planning this all along, but I've seen no evidence for that.

Bartweiss 8y ago
They were planning to remove adult content long before that, and the iOs ban largely served to speed up their timeline. At least, that's the story from some ex-staff who talked to Vox after the news broke: https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn-ban-verizon-ad-goals-sex-work-fandom https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn...

echelon 8y ago

Did SESTA-FOSTA actually accomplish anything? Do we have numbers to show that it put a stop to sex trafficking? Why was this legislation pushed through so quickly without any opposition like SOPA or PIPA? I don't get the "why". Who was behind this?

sp332 8y ago
It definitely made things worse. "New statistics shared by the San Francisco police show... sex trafficking shot up 170 percent in 2018." https://www.dailydot.com/irl/increase-sex-trafficking-sesta-fosta/ https://www.dailydot.com/irl/increase-sex-trafficking-sesta-... They claim it's just improved reporting because of increased outreach. "DiAngelo says she received calls from women who are suicidal because they’ve been forced to work on the streets and return to dangerous pimps." https://www.kalw.org/post/one-year-federal-law-curb-sex-trafficking-online-remains-controversial https://www.kalw.org/post/one-year-federal-law-curb-sex-traf... "Breyer estimated that there were about double or triple the usual number of workers seeking assistance." https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17306486/sex-work-online-fosta-backpage-communications-decency-act https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/17306486/sex-work-online-f... "online private group chats where sex workers could share survival strategies and harm reduction techniques to stay safe have also disappeared" https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/anti-sex-trafficking-advocates-say-new-law-cripples-efforts-to-save-victims-629081/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/anti-s... (Banner image kinda NSFW) Here's an actual survey of sex workers in Seattle. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1KBsVBQh7EsRexAyZacaf_fUvvsVb2MR1Q30_gV7Jegc/edit#slide=id.g3b643c759f_0_50 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1KBsVBQh7EsRexAyZacaf... (results start on slide 7) And it's had effects internationally. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/sex-workers-in-australia-say-american-law-is-creating-devastating-losses-back-home/news-story/09139a2f0d631cd7284090d2336ca517 https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/sex/sex-work...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lenticular 8y ago
Sex worker advocates were nearly united against SESTA/FOSTA. No one listened to them. This conflation of prostitution and sex trafficking has gotten really out of hand.

ImprovedSilence 8y ago

I always suspected that the ban was partly based on the fact that porn content was driving a ton of bandwidth that was not monetizable. Or at least not in any way the decision makers saw as feasible without getting into legal trouble...

Bartweiss 8y ago
That can be more than just suspicion - it was confirmed by insiders after the announcement. The ban had apparently been in the works for some time, and the iOs action just provoked them to move up the timeline. (Which also explains the decision to release an untrained system and let real users serve as alpha testers.) Oath apparently viewed the adult content as a nonstarter for monetization and a general threat to advertiser relationships. Since both the site's design and its massive engineering flaws meant adult content showed up anywhere, it was even driving advertisers away from not-necessarily-adult content like user feeds, and there was some concern it was even keeping user counts down. Of course, the entire plan here was nuts. Oath apparently wanted to double user counts by summer 2019, even though growth was effectively zero and there was no plan to fix that. They confused an adult content problem with a spam problem, and so the spam is still going strong. And the monetization outlook is genuinely hilarious: Oath intended to ban adult content as a step to monetizing the site's fandom and social justice communities. Apparently nobody noticed that the fandom stuff was the porn they were banning, or that a solid 20% of all users were going to be affected. https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn-ban-verizon-ad-goals-sex-work-fandom https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/4/18126112/tumblr-porn...