4 ms·

That's… one of the more interesting things I've read today.

dang 8y ago
The parent referred to "Chinese commenters" (and "ward off" was bad enough), but your comment seems to imply that they're all "CCP astroturfers". That's against the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Obviously there are real issues to be discussed here, but to do so well means we have to get good at not doing things that kill real discussion, and denigrating large groups en masse is one.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kkarakk 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party Wu Mao Dang is common enough and well known enough that it has a wikipedia page(a very thoroughly edited and referenced one)...it IS real discussion.
  - dang 8y ago
    That is extremely well known—so much so that people rush to repeat it on every relevant, and many an irrelevant, occasion. Please see my reply at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19821356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19821356. The issue here was conflating all Chinese commenters with CCP astroturfers and representing them as vampires who need to be "warded off". It's great that you're concerned with discussion integrity on HN—so are we, very much—but please take care that garden-variety prejudice doesn't leach into this. That happens so easily as to be a bigger problem than the astroturfing people complain about, which they frequently imagine to be happening based on zero evidence. I've written about this a great deal if anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
- _iyig 8y ago
  I don’t know what the comment to which you’ve replied said originally, but it’s true that China pays thousands of people to astroturf comments on the Internet. This fact has been established by the international press and also by the Chinese government. Furthermore, people in China aren’t stupid, and many are aware of this phenomenon as it is quite prevalent on the domestic Chinese Internet (Weibo, WeChat, etc). Are all positive comments about China made by the “wumao army?” Of course not. Are many such comments astroturfed (Edit for clarification: speaking of the broader Internet)? Absolutely. Would it be racist to point out the existence of the large and well-funded groups paid to make such comments? I don’t think so. Obviously, this isn’t a cudgel to be used against any pro-Chinese government comment or argument. “Wumao” is often employed as a slur. But it is 100% a real phenomenon. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7783640.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7783640.stm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army https://youtu.be/yCnnPf2OnHo https://youtu.be/yCnnPf2OnHo
  - dang 8y ago
    Everyone knows that's a real phenomenon. The issue I was addressing was people's tendency, unfortunately very common, to conflate every Chinese commenter, indeed anyone advocating a Chinese perspective, with CCP astroturfers. That's a serious problem on HN. (I don't think it was colanderman's intention to do this and I'm sure that's why he edited his comment after I replied to it.) The temptation is strong, when encountering views one dislikes, to regard the person expressing them as disingenuous and pushing some sinister agenda. This is why the site guidelines explicitly say "Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried, email us and we'll look at the data." As geopolitics between China and the West heat up for reasons totally beyond this site, users here need to remember that HN is an international community where all are welcome. Being welcome, among other things, means not being slurred because of your national origin, language, race, and so on. It's nice that HN feels like a small and intimate place, but it's not a living room—when you post here, you're broadcasting to an audience of millions. Many come from very different backgrounds than you or I or any of us does, and they have just as much a right to be here as you and I and any of us does. The image of "warding off Chinese commenters", which you invoked in your comment upthread, is dismaying and exactly what we don't want here. People need to listen to each other more, not less, when there is distance between them. I don't want to be part of any site that works against that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dang 8y ago

The parent referred to "Chinese commenters" (and "ward off" was bad enough), but your comment seems to imply that they're all "CCP astroturfers". That's against the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Obviously there are real issues to be discussed here, but to do so well means we have to get good at not doing things that kill real discussion, and denigrating large groups en masse is one.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kkarakk 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party Wu Mao Dang is common enough and well known enough that it has a wikipedia page(a very thoroughly edited and referenced one)...it IS real discussion.
- dang 8y ago
  That is extremely well known—so much so that people rush to repeat it on every relevant, and many an irrelevant, occasion. Please see my reply at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19821356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19821356. The issue here was conflating all Chinese commenters with CCP astroturfers and representing them as vampires who need to be "warded off". It's great that you're concerned with discussion integrity on HN—so are we, very much—but please take care that garden-variety prejudice doesn't leach into this. That happens so easily as to be a bigger problem than the astroturfing people complain about, which they frequently imagine to be happening based on zero evidence. I've written about this a great deal if anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
_iyig 8y ago
I don’t know what the comment to which you’ve replied said originally, but it’s true that China pays thousands of people to astroturf comments on the Internet. This fact has been established by the international press and also by the Chinese government. Furthermore, people in China aren’t stupid, and many are aware of this phenomenon as it is quite prevalent on the domestic Chinese Internet (Weibo, WeChat, etc). Are all positive comments about China made by the “wumao army?” Of course not. Are many such comments astroturfed (Edit for clarification: speaking of the broader Internet)? Absolutely. Would it be racist to point out the existence of the large and well-funded groups paid to make such comments? I don’t think so. Obviously, this isn’t a cudgel to be used against any pro-Chinese government comment or argument. “Wumao” is often employed as a slur. But it is 100% a real phenomenon. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7783640.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7783640.stm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army https://youtu.be/yCnnPf2OnHo https://youtu.be/yCnnPf2OnHo
- dang 8y ago
  Everyone knows that's a real phenomenon. The issue I was addressing was people's tendency, unfortunately very common, to conflate every Chinese commenter, indeed anyone advocating a Chinese perspective, with CCP astroturfers. That's a serious problem on HN. (I don't think it was colanderman's intention to do this and I'm sure that's why he edited his comment after I replied to it.) The temptation is strong, when encountering views one dislikes, to regard the person expressing them as disingenuous and pushing some sinister agenda. This is why the site guidelines explicitly say "Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried, email us and we'll look at the data." As geopolitics between China and the West heat up for reasons totally beyond this site, users here need to remember that HN is an international community where all are welcome. Being welcome, among other things, means not being slurred because of your national origin, language, race, and so on. It's nice that HN feels like a small and intimate place, but it's not a living room—when you post here, you're broadcasting to an audience of millions. Many come from very different backgrounds than you or I or any of us does, and they have just as much a right to be here as you and I and any of us does. The image of "warding off Chinese commenters", which you invoked in your comment upthread, is dismaying and exactly what we don't want here. People need to listen to each other more, not less, when there is distance between them. I don't want to be part of any site that works against that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html