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Is it really that useful to identify someone who has overstayed their visa when they are leaving the country? Sure, you then know not to let them in next time.

Is it really that useful to identify someone who has overstayed their visa when they are leaving the country? Sure, you then know not to let them in next time. But it seems like a lot of effort when there are so many people overstaying their visa and not leaving out of the airports. That said, even as a libertarian, privacy-conscious person, I'm not sure I have a problem with exit controls like this. It's important to know who is crossing the border, in both directions. But why do they even need the photo? Presumably the name is already on the ticket... surely they can detect overstays from names + address alone, not just photos?

mfatica 8y ago
Didn't read the article, did it specify international flights? It makes sense if they're doing this for intranational flights too
village-idiot 8y ago
Also, you need photo ID to fly and pass customs.
- dillonmckay 8y ago
  You don’t need photo ID to fly. TSA will ask you questions from your credit report and allow you to board. *US citizens flying within the states.
  - gumby 8y ago
    You are correct; sad that most people don't know this.
    - reallydude 8y ago
      I'm not sure that's true everywhere, but not for long many places (eg California, Washington). Casual article on it: https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/how-to-get-on-a-plane-when-real-id-is-enforced-in-october-2020/281-573114349 https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/how-to-get-on-a-pla...
      - gumby 8y ago
        The real id rules only address what documents count as id, no the cases of no id
    - asdff 8y ago
      Why should they? The only time it would be relevant is if you forgot your ID, and if you want to rent a car or hotel at your destination that might be a problem there as well. Knowing the TSA, I bet this adds at least an hour to the trip as you are begrudgingly walked to some back room and sit there for 20 minutes while someone is pulling up your file.
      - ghaff 8y ago
        My one experience with losing an ID was that there was no real issue although it took 15 minutes or so to do a more thorough check. It was very professional. The Travelodge at the other end was a bigger deal though I was eventually able to check in there. ADDED: It appears that as of Oct 1 2020, this sort of exception will no longer be possible.
        gumby 8y ago
        Do you have a ref? I haven’t seen any notice of change, though of course the actual law is classified.
        ghaff 8y ago
        https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs It doesn't explicitly say "no exceptions" but the plain text is certainly that you will need appropriate ID (Real ID/passport/etc.) to go through TSA when Real ID requirement fully kicks in.
        gumby 8y ago
        The barrage of propaganda since the Gore match-if-to-traveler policy was enacted has been that ID is required but in practice it has not been enforced. As I mentioned, the actual law is classified so cannot be consulted not litigated in court so we’ll simply have to see
      - gumby 8y ago
        I typically don’t carry any id in the us, and since Apple Pay came out just a little cash in my pocket. The inspection is not a big deal and they are prepared for this situation. It’s a shame that the laws that control this are classified (cf Gilmore v Gonzalez) so we can’t know what the actual rules are.
    - acct1771 8y ago
      Is REAL ID dead?
      - gumby 8y ago
        I hope so. The gosh-darn-no-exceptions deadline has been extended several times and I presume will be again. It’s a “solution” in search of a problem.
  - morpheuskafka 8y ago
    You are required by regulation to have it. There is, as you describe, a convenience procedure intended to help people who forget their ID. You could still be turned away if you do this frequently or they otherwise have reason to doubt the legitimacy of it. And they don't have time for everyone in line to do it--if they did, this exception would go away completely.
    - dillonmckay 8y ago
      For sure. A coworker lost his wallet while hiking after a sales visit prior to his flight.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - bookofjoe 8y ago
    From TSA press release April 4, 2019 (https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-travelers-real-id-identification-requirements https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-tra...): "Travelers will begin seeing new signs at airports nationwide in the coming weeks to remind people that REAL ID-compliant licenses or other acceptable forms of ID, such as a valid passport, federal government PIV card or U.S. military ID, will be mandatory for air travel beginning on October 1, 2020. Critically important, on October 1, 2020, individuals who are unable to verify their identity will not be permitted to enter the TSA checkpoint and will not be allowed to fly."
  - LastZactionHero 8y ago
    Oh, sorry, you don’t have ID? Oh… I hate to tell you, but… I guess you live in Dallas now. I think you need to start a new life here in Dallas, and work hard until you get a new ID. And then you could use that ID to fly back to your old life and get your old ID. - Hannibal Buress
- URSpider94 8y ago
  You need more than a photo ID for international travel. You need a passport and any required visas to clear into the destination. Airlines care very much about this, because they are responsible for repatriating you if you are denied entry at your destination.
freeone3000 8y ago
Address isn't on the ticket or on the visa/passport. As many people on the "no-fly list" can attest, very many people have the same name.
- chatmasta 8y ago
  That's true. But the article is talking about international flights. So in fact they have way more information in this case, as a passport is required. Granted it might not be the same passport the person arrived with. But it's a passport. Anyway, I think facial recognition makes sense from a security perspective, as an additional layer of defense. You can make assumptions about what faces you expect to see from the passports that are scheduled to fly. If you see an unknown face in the boarding area, it's reasonable to flag that person for further review.
mikeash 8y ago
It’s not about catching visa overstays on their way out. It’s about identifying who’s still here. Take the set of people who entered, subtract the set who exited, and anyone who remains who entered too long ago is an overstay.
- Applethief 8y ago
  You're math is fantastic.
  - Vehemental 8y ago
    nobody has ever died in the united states, or crossed the border to Mexico or Canada without alerting the proper authorities. The Math will work out. I'm also quite sure everyone overstaying Visas will be very easy to find and in no way go by another identity.
  - dang 8y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
gumby 8y ago
> It's important to know who is crossing the border, in both directions. Why? And if there exists an important reason to know that someone is exiting the country does that same criterion not also apply to exiting a state or city or neighborhood? I am not being sarcastic; I am genuinely unable to come up with a reason it's important to track who leaves almost any place, except in highly unusual cases (e.g. "OK guys, chatmasta has gone; let's get to work planning the surprise party for when he gets back")
- chatmasta 8y ago
  So that next time chatmasta comes back, you know when he left. Otherwise how do you know how long he stayed in the country, and therefore how many days he should be allowed on this next visit? Currently, I assume the countries without exit controls have access to the entry databases of the destination countries, so they forego exit controls as redundant.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    > Currently, I assume the countries without exit controls have access to the entry databases of the destination countries I believe the US exit controls are currently based on airline passenger manifests (not entry databases of other countries).
- rayiner 8y ago
  Borders are different. There is a right to free movement within a country. Not so across borders.
  - antpls 8y ago
    There is a right to free movement in the country because it would be impractical to check movements of people at this level of granularity. With this development of technology, it becomes possible to even check who is crossing your neighborhood, and you may lose your freedom inside your own country, if a government decided to go in that direction
elliekelly 8y ago
> Is it really that useful to identify someone who has overstayed their visa when they are leaving the country? Sure, you then know not to let them in next time. This happened to me leaving London and it was a lot of fuss over nothing. I (American) had given my forwarding travel plans to the border agent upon arrival and I didn't notice but she marked my passport with a visa for an exact stay (just the weekend). Except she mistakenly wrote my exit date a day early. It took quite a bit of explaining to convince them not to put a giant "DEPORTED" stamp in my passport and even though they eventually believed me that it was a clerical mistake they definitely kept track in their system because I was questioned about it several months later when I went to the Falkland Islands.
codedokode 8y ago
It might be just a convenient way to collect photos for the database.

mfatica 8y ago

Didn't read the article, did it specify international flights? It makes sense if they're doing this for intranational flights too

village-idiot 8y ago

Also, you need photo ID to fly and pass customs.

dillonmckay 8y ago
You don’t need photo ID to fly. TSA will ask you questions from your credit report and allow you to board. *US citizens flying within the states.
- gumby 8y ago
  You are correct; sad that most people don't know this.
  - reallydude 8y ago
    I'm not sure that's true everywhere, but not for long many places (eg California, Washington). Casual article on it: https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/how-to-get-on-a-plane-when-real-id-is-enforced-in-october-2020/281-573114349 https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/how-to-get-on-a-pla...
    - gumby 8y ago
      The real id rules only address what documents count as id, no the cases of no id
  - asdff 8y ago
    Why should they? The only time it would be relevant is if you forgot your ID, and if you want to rent a car or hotel at your destination that might be a problem there as well. Knowing the TSA, I bet this adds at least an hour to the trip as you are begrudgingly walked to some back room and sit there for 20 minutes while someone is pulling up your file.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      My one experience with losing an ID was that there was no real issue although it took 15 minutes or so to do a more thorough check. It was very professional. The Travelodge at the other end was a bigger deal though I was eventually able to check in there. ADDED: It appears that as of Oct 1 2020, this sort of exception will no longer be possible.
      - gumby 8y ago
        Do you have a ref? I haven’t seen any notice of change, though of course the actual law is classified.
        ghaff 8y ago
        https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs It doesn't explicitly say "no exceptions" but the plain text is certainly that you will need appropriate ID (Real ID/passport/etc.) to go through TSA when Real ID requirement fully kicks in.
        gumby 8y ago
        The barrage of propaganda since the Gore match-if-to-traveler policy was enacted has been that ID is required but in practice it has not been enforced. As I mentioned, the actual law is classified so cannot be consulted not litigated in court so we’ll simply have to see
    - gumby 8y ago
      I typically don’t carry any id in the us, and since Apple Pay came out just a little cash in my pocket. The inspection is not a big deal and they are prepared for this situation. It’s a shame that the laws that control this are classified (cf Gilmore v Gonzalez) so we can’t know what the actual rules are.
  - acct1771 8y ago
    Is REAL ID dead?
    - gumby 8y ago
      I hope so. The gosh-darn-no-exceptions deadline has been extended several times and I presume will be again. It’s a “solution” in search of a problem.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  You are required by regulation to have it. There is, as you describe, a convenience procedure intended to help people who forget their ID. You could still be turned away if you do this frequently or they otherwise have reason to doubt the legitimacy of it. And they don't have time for everyone in line to do it--if they did, this exception would go away completely.
  - dillonmckay 8y ago
    For sure. A coworker lost his wallet while hiking after a sales visit prior to his flight.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bookofjoe 8y ago
  From TSA press release April 4, 2019 (https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-travelers-real-id-identification-requirements https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2019/04/04/tsa-reminds-tra...): "Travelers will begin seeing new signs at airports nationwide in the coming weeks to remind people that REAL ID-compliant licenses or other acceptable forms of ID, such as a valid passport, federal government PIV card or U.S. military ID, will be mandatory for air travel beginning on October 1, 2020. Critically important, on October 1, 2020, individuals who are unable to verify their identity will not be permitted to enter the TSA checkpoint and will not be allowed to fly."
- LastZactionHero 8y ago
  Oh, sorry, you don’t have ID? Oh… I hate to tell you, but… I guess you live in Dallas now. I think you need to start a new life here in Dallas, and work hard until you get a new ID. And then you could use that ID to fly back to your old life and get your old ID. - Hannibal Buress
URSpider94 8y ago
You need more than a photo ID for international travel. You need a passport and any required visas to clear into the destination. Airlines care very much about this, because they are responsible for repatriating you if you are denied entry at your destination.

freeone3000 8y ago

Address isn't on the ticket or on the visa/passport. As many people on the "no-fly list" can attest, very many people have the same name.

chatmasta 8y ago
That's true. But the article is talking about international flights. So in fact they have way more information in this case, as a passport is required. Granted it might not be the same passport the person arrived with. But it's a passport. Anyway, I think facial recognition makes sense from a security perspective, as an additional layer of defense. You can make assumptions about what faces you expect to see from the passports that are scheduled to fly. If you see an unknown face in the boarding area, it's reasonable to flag that person for further review.

mikeash 8y ago

It’s not about catching visa overstays on their way out. It’s about identifying who’s still here. Take the set of people who entered, subtract the set who exited, and anyone who remains who entered too long ago is an overstay.

Applethief 8y ago
You're math is fantastic.
- Vehemental 8y ago
  nobody has ever died in the united states, or crossed the border to Mexico or Canada without alerting the proper authorities. The Math will work out. I'm also quite sure everyone overstaying Visas will be very easy to find and in no way go by another identity.
- dang 8y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

gumby 8y ago

> It's important to know who is crossing the border, in both directions. Why? And if there exists an important reason to know that someone is exiting the country does that same criterion not also apply to exiting a state or city or neighborhood? I am not being sarcastic; I am genuinely unable to come up with a reason it's important to track who leaves almost any place, except in highly unusual cases (e.g. "OK guys, chatmasta has gone; let's get to work planning the surprise party for when he gets back")

chatmasta 8y ago
So that next time chatmasta comes back, you know when he left. Otherwise how do you know how long he stayed in the country, and therefore how many days he should be allowed on this next visit? Currently, I assume the countries without exit controls have access to the entry databases of the destination countries, so they forego exit controls as redundant.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kalleboo 8y ago
  > Currently, I assume the countries without exit controls have access to the entry databases of the destination countries I believe the US exit controls are currently based on airline passenger manifests (not entry databases of other countries).
rayiner 8y ago
Borders are different. There is a right to free movement within a country. Not so across borders.
- antpls 8y ago
  There is a right to free movement in the country because it would be impractical to check movements of people at this level of granularity. With this development of technology, it becomes possible to even check who is crossing your neighborhood, and you may lose your freedom inside your own country, if a government decided to go in that direction

elliekelly 8y ago

> Is it really that useful to identify someone who has overstayed their visa when they are leaving the country? Sure, you then know not to let them in next time. This happened to me leaving London and it was a lot of fuss over nothing. I (American) had given my forwarding travel plans to the border agent upon arrival and I didn't notice but she marked my passport with a visa for an exact stay (just the weekend). Except she mistakenly wrote my exit date a day early. It took quite a bit of explaining to convince them not to put a giant "DEPORTED" stamp in my passport and even though they eventually believed me that it was a clerical mistake they definitely kept track in their system because I was questioned about it several months later when I went to the Falkland Islands.

codedokode 8y ago

It might be just a convenient way to collect photos for the database.