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So you've established that it's desirable for black people to be proud of their blackness. Is it desirable for white people to be proud of their whiteness? If

So you've established that it's desirable for black people to be proud of their blackness. Is it desirable for white people to be proud of their whiteness? If you allow for one of these and not the other, you'd be a racist.

dragonwriter 7y ago
“Black” and “White” as identities are both products of White racism (outside of White racism, individual ethnic identities have historically been prominent, but not a racial identity.) Positive Black racial identity is a reaction against White racism, whereas White racial identity is it's continuation. And it remains the case that the effort to advance a broad crosd-ethnic White racial identity is intimately connected with White supremacy. Mirror tests work when the things being swapped are actually, in relevant context, similarly situated, but that is simply not the case in Black vs. White identity. Abstractly, there's nothing wrong with positive White racial identity, but in the real world, that doesn't exist as free-floating thing detached from White supremacist ideology.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- vibrato 7y ago
  And black identity is detached from black supremacist ideology? In fact, logic is useful in evaluating the world. All of it.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > And black identity is detached from black supremacist ideology? Yes, it is. Both exist (well, at least black identity and black nationalism do, and that's close enough that I'm not going to quibble about it), but while black nationalism depends on black identity black identity exists and thrives outside of it (and historically does so as a reaction against White anti-Black racist actions and ideology), while White racial identity as opposed to ethnic identities largely does not exist outside of White racism (of which it is also a product, though not, obviously, a reaction against.) > In fact, logic is useful in evaluating the world. Logic is useful for evaluating the relationship between abstract concepts, but is only useful for evaluating the world when you join it with all the relevant facts about the world. When you reason about abstractions without facts, or in ways which implicitly make counterfactual assumptions, you reach conclusions that are either without material relevance or incorrect.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    "Black", in the "African American" sense we're talking about here, is a distinct and coherent culture, ironically one forcibly created by white slave traders who kidnapped Africans and stripped them of their names, languages, and cultures and left them in 19th century North America to build a new one for themselves, which they did. American Black culture includes jazz and (later) hip-hop, the Harlem Renaissance, a huge chunk of 20th century dance, African American Vernacular English, Black churches (and the civil rights movement), soul food, and so on. Other coherent cultures include the Irish, Italians, Polish, Russians, and, of course, Germans, French, and English. Parades are held for these cultures; entire sections of major cities are named for them, museums are erected for them, &c. What people on message boards seem to have a problem with is the idea that "Black" is a culture with similar standing to the Irish --- or rather, they'd prefer to believe that there is a coherent "White" culture that functions similar to Black culture. There is not; the suggestion otherwise is literally an expression of anti-Black racism, as you can see from the way "white culture" has gradually co-opted formerly out-grouped Irish, Italian, and Jewish people, in solidarity against integration with Black people. Nobody seriously protests the South Side Irish Parade (unless they live in Beverly and care about their lawns), the Polish American Museum, or the New York Columbus Day Parade. They do protest parades of "white pride", for reasons I assume are now obvious to you.
    - balls187 7y ago
      There is no point in attempting to argue with racists.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        Who's arguing? The question was asked, and I'm answering it. This is like one of the very few social controversies you can resolve axiomatically in an HN comment.
balls187 7y ago
Oh my sweet summer child. What does being proud to be white mean to you?
- AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
  This is exactly like being proud to be black, but white.
  - balls187 7y ago
    So white pride is celebrating prominent white actors, educators, inventors, business leaders, and culture--things that have historically been denied or discounted.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't respond to flamebait with more of the same. That only leads to hell, and we're trying for this site not to go there. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
aeturnum 7y ago
I spoke imprecisely and I appreciate the opportunity to be more specific. You're right that the Nation promotes the inherent superiority of black people. I didn't mean to endorse that view. Many of the narratives that describe worlds where black bodies are "lesser than" white bodies are written by people who believe in white-supremacist ideas (even if they don't support the philosophy explicitly - Thomas Jefferson comes to mind). These are not "white supremacist" texts, but they assist in shaping a world view that a white supremacist likes. The texts and ideas promoted by the Nation are generally explicitly founded on black supremacy (which is unfortunate) but also portray black bodies as superior to white ones - a rare trait. If I can see the good, lofty goals of the US Constitution "through" slavery and the designation of black people as being only 60% the value of whites, I can also appreciate the Nation's work through its own incorrect racial hierarchy. I also think that both white and black people can appreciate the heritage they come from[1]. The struggles of black americans against all odds are, to me, unambiguously heroic. The innovations and inventions of white americans' European (or American) ancestors are, I think, also worth celebrating. [1] This gets very tricky because, of course, people who want to promote white people as inherently superior often take this tack. Culture is hard and messy and I think we probably come down a little hard on celebrating European history, but I think we should be far, far, far more celebratory of the the insane stories of various African Americans. Check out this dude! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Smalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Smalls Edit: Also we must keep in mind that the magnitude of the problem is related to the amount of power the particular group has. If a prisoner is espousing a philosophy that makes prisoners superior to other humans, even if it's incorrect, it's hard to argue we "need" to crack down on it. Narratives of white supremacy are so harmful precisely because white people have been in a position to ignore the welfare of other groups.
- MockObject 7y ago
  > Many of the narratives that describe worlds where black bodies are "lesser than" white bodies In a thread about dehumanizing speech, you're referring to human beings as "bodies". Huh.
tptacek 7y ago
Someone better tell the South Side Irish to call off their 2020 parade.
dang 7y ago
Please don't take royal roads to internet flamewars on HN. There's nothing new to be had from any of these arguments. If you want to rehearse them, please do so some other place. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: you've done this a lot and we've warned you before. If you continue, we're going to have to ban you. Not for ideological reasons; for boredom avoidance reasons.

dragonwriter 7y ago

“Black” and “White” as identities are both products of White racism (outside of White racism, individual ethnic identities have historically been prominent, but not a racial identity.) Positive Black racial identity is a reaction against White racism, whereas White racial identity is it's continuation. And it remains the case that the effort to advance a broad crosd-ethnic White racial identity is intimately connected with White supremacy. Mirror tests work when the things being swapped are actually, in relevant context, similarly situated, but that is simply not the case in Black vs. White identity. Abstractly, there's nothing wrong with positive White racial identity, but in the real world, that doesn't exist as free-floating thing detached from White supremacist ideology.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
vibrato 7y ago
And black identity is detached from black supremacist ideology? In fact, logic is useful in evaluating the world. All of it.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > And black identity is detached from black supremacist ideology? Yes, it is. Both exist (well, at least black identity and black nationalism do, and that's close enough that I'm not going to quibble about it), but while black nationalism depends on black identity black identity exists and thrives outside of it (and historically does so as a reaction against White anti-Black racist actions and ideology), while White racial identity as opposed to ethnic identities largely does not exist outside of White racism (of which it is also a product, though not, obviously, a reaction against.) > In fact, logic is useful in evaluating the world. Logic is useful for evaluating the relationship between abstract concepts, but is only useful for evaluating the world when you join it with all the relevant facts about the world. When you reason about abstractions without facts, or in ways which implicitly make counterfactual assumptions, you reach conclusions that are either without material relevance or incorrect.
- tptacek 7y ago
  "Black", in the "African American" sense we're talking about here, is a distinct and coherent culture, ironically one forcibly created by white slave traders who kidnapped Africans and stripped them of their names, languages, and cultures and left them in 19th century North America to build a new one for themselves, which they did. American Black culture includes jazz and (later) hip-hop, the Harlem Renaissance, a huge chunk of 20th century dance, African American Vernacular English, Black churches (and the civil rights movement), soul food, and so on. Other coherent cultures include the Irish, Italians, Polish, Russians, and, of course, Germans, French, and English. Parades are held for these cultures; entire sections of major cities are named for them, museums are erected for them, &c. What people on message boards seem to have a problem with is the idea that "Black" is a culture with similar standing to the Irish --- or rather, they'd prefer to believe that there is a coherent "White" culture that functions similar to Black culture. There is not; the suggestion otherwise is literally an expression of anti-Black racism, as you can see from the way "white culture" has gradually co-opted formerly out-grouped Irish, Italian, and Jewish people, in solidarity against integration with Black people. Nobody seriously protests the South Side Irish Parade (unless they live in Beverly and care about their lawns), the Polish American Museum, or the New York Columbus Day Parade. They do protest parades of "white pride", for reasons I assume are now obvious to you.
  - balls187 7y ago
    There is no point in attempting to argue with racists.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      Who's arguing? The question was asked, and I'm answering it. This is like one of the very few social controversies you can resolve axiomatically in an HN comment.

balls187 7y ago

Oh my sweet summer child. What does being proud to be white mean to you?

AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
This is exactly like being proud to be black, but white.
- balls187 7y ago
  So white pride is celebrating prominent white actors, educators, inventors, business leaders, and culture--things that have historically been denied or discounted.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
dang 7y ago
Please don't respond to flamebait with more of the same. That only leads to hell, and we're trying for this site not to go there. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

aeturnum 7y ago

I spoke imprecisely and I appreciate the opportunity to be more specific. You're right that the Nation promotes the inherent superiority of black people. I didn't mean to endorse that view. Many of the narratives that describe worlds where black bodies are "lesser than" white bodies are written by people who believe in white-supremacist ideas (even if they don't support the philosophy explicitly - Thomas Jefferson comes to mind). These are not "white supremacist" texts, but they assist in shaping a world view that a white supremacist likes. The texts and ideas promoted by the Nation are generally explicitly founded on black supremacy (which is unfortunate) but also portray black bodies as superior to white ones - a rare trait. If I can see the good, lofty goals of the US Constitution "through" slavery and the designation of black people as being only 60% the value of whites, I can also appreciate the Nation's work through its own incorrect racial hierarchy. I also think that both white and black people can appreciate the heritage they come from[1]. The struggles of black americans against all odds are, to me, unambiguously heroic. The innovations and inventions of white americans' European (or American) ancestors are, I think, also worth celebrating. [1] This gets very tricky because, of course, people who want to promote white people as inherently superior often take this tack. Culture is hard and messy and I think we probably come down a little hard on celebrating European history, but I think we should be far, far, far more celebratory of the the insane stories of various African Americans. Check out this dude! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Smalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Smalls Edit: Also we must keep in mind that the magnitude of the problem is related to the amount of power the particular group has. If a prisoner is espousing a philosophy that makes prisoners superior to other humans, even if it's incorrect, it's hard to argue we "need" to crack down on it. Narratives of white supremacy are so harmful precisely because white people have been in a position to ignore the welfare of other groups.

MockObject 7y ago
> Many of the narratives that describe worlds where black bodies are "lesser than" white bodies In a thread about dehumanizing speech, you're referring to human beings as "bodies". Huh.

tptacek 7y ago

Someone better tell the South Side Irish to call off their 2020 parade.

dang 7y ago

Please don't take royal roads to internet flamewars on HN. There's nothing new to be had from any of these arguments. If you want to rehearse them, please do so some other place. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: you've done this a lot and we've warned you before. If you continue, we're going to have to ban you. Not for ideological reasons; for boredom avoidance reasons.