7 ms·

I don't know about Paul Joseph but I believe Milo has had cases of publicly naming, threatening to name, doxxing, and mocking trans women that study on the camp

I don't know about Paul Joseph but I believe Milo has had cases of publicly naming, threatening to name, doxxing, and mocking trans women that study on the campuses that he's spoken at. I belive this is dangerous behavior due to statistic that trans people are especially vulnerable for being murdered compared to the rest of the American population.

Veen 7y ago
If a group is marginally more likely to suffer violence, anyone mocking them should be denied access to widely used communications platforms? Doesn’t really make sense, does it?
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  Trans people are not marginally more likely to suffer violence. They're significantly more likely to suffer violence, on the rate of several times more than the general population.
  - Veen 7y ago
    And banning Milo from Facebook is going to somehow improve that situation is it? Milo the loud mouthed cretin’s tame insults are responsible for the incidence of violence against trans women?
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
      The bar Facebook has set is not that they will improve the situation of all trans women everywhere. The bar set is that Facebook will removing people known for dangerous speech. The question is "has Milo committed dangerous speech?". I answered "yes, I believe so, I recall incidents that can be interpreted as such". Also, I did see what you wrote before you edited it out. That was an unfortunate, accusatory comment in bad faith and I'm glad you removed it.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - sigzero 7y ago
        You recall? Post the proof. I think if it were true it would definitely be all over for him.
    - davidw 7y ago
      Yes, it works https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/12/5/18125507/milo-yiannopoulos-debt-no-platform https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/12/5/18125507/m...
      - wesammikhail 7y ago
        Zack Beauchamp? really? I have no schtick in this debate but damn!! Using Vox´s Zack Beauchamp´s journalistic compass as a judge on what "works" is like if a dude linked you to flatearth.com to prove that circles are actually squares...
  - rthrowayay 7y ago
    I tried to find statistics for this claim by looking at homicide risk but was unable to find anything supporting it. Possibly this is true in non-western countries. For example here is a look at the data that claims tran people are less at risk in the UK. https://www.google.com/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murd... I suspect there are lots of confounders if you wanted to isolate the risk that trans brings. For example apparently trans people have a higher rate of sex work which would increase the risk. On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if trans were coming from higher socio-economic groups on average which would lower the risk.
    - jaziek 7y ago
      Fair play for women is a notoriously anti trans organisation. I wouldn't go looking for trans related statistics there.
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
      I know this is late but from what I recall trans women are approximately 4.3x more likely to be murdered(Trans people of color coalition and human rights campaign), and 1 out of 2 trans people have experienced violence (I forget where I've seen this).
      - TKWasRight 7y ago
        So what is that, like 10 people total? It seems like we're always blowing the importance of the trans community way out of proportion...there aren't that many of them and a lot of them end up committing suicide...they, as a group, aren't that important in terms of impact on society
  - 55555 7y ago
    In the USA this doesnt seem to be true. I just looked up the stats. 23 and 27 murders of trans individuals in US over past 2 years. Avg US homicide rate is 5 deaths per 100,000 per year. There are roughly 1.5 million trans individuals so you'd expect 75 or so. However margin of error and confounding variables are massive so my point is just that it seems roughly normal, not that it's safer to be trans. This despite 15% of female transgenders having worked at some time in the sex industry, more involvement with drugs, etc. If you want some crazy (depressing) stats, look up trans suicide rates. Although I would speculate that only like 1 in 40 attempts succeeds.
    - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
      I know this is late but from what I recall trans women are approximately 4.3x more likely to be murdered(Trans people of color coalition and human rights campaign), and 1 out of 2 trans people have experienced violence (I forget where I've seen this).
      - Veen 7y ago
        As a counterpoint, ten trans people were murdered in the UK in the last ten years. About one per year in a population of of 66 million. A high estimate of the number of trans people in the UK is around 500,000. On average, there is a one in one hundred thousand chance of being murdered in the UK each year. Given those figures, trans people are considerably less likely to be murdered than non-trans people. Even if we take the lowest estimate of the number of trans people I've seen — around 200,000 — non-trans people are still twice as likely to be murdered as trans people. https://transrespect.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/TvT_TMM_TDoR2018_Tables_EN.pdf https://transrespect.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/TvT_TMM_... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... (And I don't think Milo is responsible for a single one of those murders)
- ggggtez 7y ago
  That's not what the above poster said, and you know it. You say "marginally", "anyone", "mocking". But the people in question aren't anyone, and they aren't just mocking. There are specific cases of them calling on their fans to harass private citizens. Anyone with some semblance of awareness of US law knows free speech is not without limits. No one is entitled to online speech, believe it or not.
  - naasking 7y ago
    > No one is entitled to online speech, believe it or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_Internet_access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_Internet_access
    - viraptor 7y ago
      This is not relevant. Some people get the right to internet access. They don't get the right to say what they want where they want without moderation.
      - naasking 7y ago
        Not irrelevant. The OP said that "no one is entitled to online speech". That's an unqualified statement which my link disproves. If they had instead qualified it as, "no one has a right to speech on Facebook", that's a different claim (arguably also false depending on the circumstances).
        belltaco 7y ago
        The post is about the US, your link shows the right exists only in about 6 countries, none of which are the US.So it's irrelevant.
        naasking 7y ago
        Once again, the statement was unqualified, "no one has the right to..." And once again, my link literally proves this statement to be false, because as you just admitted, at least some people do have that right.
ehsankia 7y ago
Indeed, Milo is not too different from Info Wars. These people use the classic tactic of saying something insanely outlandish, and when they are called out on it, they just use the "I was obviously sarcastic" card. Even if they are just joking, their followers most definitely take their message at face value, and that's exactly why they are dangerous.
- cat199 7y ago
  > These people use the classic tactic of saying something insanely outlandish, and when they are called out on it, they just use the "I was obviously sarcastic" card. So, like, the 'Saturday Night Live Card'?
  - berbec 7y ago
    Do you not find a difference between a show that bills itself as comedy and satire and a site that bills itself as news and info?
    - cat199 7y ago
      Sure, but net effect is the same - saying something hugely biased and hiding behind a screen of humor (legitimate or not) to allow it to be said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_within_a_story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_within_a_story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend_Update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend_Update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester
    - neetdeth 7y ago
      The former can be just as disingenuous as the latter. Jon Stewart wielded immense political influence amongst the under-30 crowd, but whenever seriously challenged, hid behind the defense of comedy. Yiannopoulos consistently billed himself as a provocateur, little different from a Coulter or Maher. People have been blending news, entertainment, and polemic together for centuries and it's not going to stop because some people want to codify rules of Serious Journalism and impose them universally across the Internet.
wyoh 7y ago
I've heard people against seeing him on campus say that, but never seen any actual proof of him doing it or even threatening to do it.
- dashundchen 7y ago
  Pretty easy to find multiple incidents of him saying threatening things, or inciting his unhinged fan base to do horrible things to people, and ducking under "I was joking", or "free speech". These trolls know exactly what they are type of harm they are causing when they walk the line of harassment. I'm of the opinion trolls like him should be given zero media attention. Anecdotally after his twitter ban I rarely saw him in the headlines like a few years ago. I am hoping media editors are starting to see when they are getting played for headlines. https://www.dailycal.org/2017/09/21/uc-berkeley-students-harassed-after-milo-yiannopoulos-publicly-identifies-them/ https://www.dailycal.org/2017/09/21/uc-berkeley-students-har... > Milo Yiannopoulos publicly posted the photos and identifying information of ASUC Senator Juniperangelica Cordova-Goff and campus doctoral student Adam Jadhav on Wednesday, spurring harassment from his supporters. https://www.advocate.com/people/2018/6/28/milo-says-death-threat-was-joke-hopes-shooter-trans https://www.advocate.com/people/2018/6/28/milo-says-death-th... > Milo Yiannopoulos said he was joking when he sent a text message to reporters, "I can’t wait for the vigilante squads to start gunning journalists down on sight." > The remark made the gay right-wing provocateur a trending topic on social media, following the Thursday shooting of the newsroom of the Capital Gazette in Annapolis, Md. https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/01/27/24830371/uw-professor-gets-doxxed-after-milo-yiannopoulos-protests https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/01/27/24830371/uw-prof... > In addition to internet doxxing, Weatherford says, his sense of physical safety on campus has been severely compromised: > They have spammed my UW email account with listserve confirmations; they know where my office is in addition to my office hours; and I have started to receive packages to my departmental mailbox, some of which hinted to include Pepe the frog figurines (an image often sent to victims of online harassment). [...] There is even a post that is attempting to find the bus that I ride in order to further harass me. And, I later learned that night that they know my biological mother’s personal information.

Veen 7y ago

If a group is marginally more likely to suffer violence, anyone mocking them should be denied access to widely used communications platforms? Doesn’t really make sense, does it?

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
Trans people are not marginally more likely to suffer violence. They're significantly more likely to suffer violence, on the rate of several times more than the general population.
- Veen 7y ago
  And banning Milo from Facebook is going to somehow improve that situation is it? Milo the loud mouthed cretin’s tame insults are responsible for the incidence of violence against trans women?
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    The bar Facebook has set is not that they will improve the situation of all trans women everywhere. The bar set is that Facebook will removing people known for dangerous speech. The question is "has Milo committed dangerous speech?". I answered "yes, I believe so, I recall incidents that can be interpreted as such". Also, I did see what you wrote before you edited it out. That was an unfortunate, accusatory comment in bad faith and I'm glad you removed it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - sigzero 7y ago
      You recall? Post the proof. I think if it were true it would definitely be all over for him.
  - davidw 7y ago
    Yes, it works https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/12/5/18125507/milo-yiannopoulos-debt-no-platform https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/12/5/18125507/m...
    - wesammikhail 7y ago
      Zack Beauchamp? really? I have no schtick in this debate but damn!! Using Vox´s Zack Beauchamp´s journalistic compass as a judge on what "works" is like if a dude linked you to flatearth.com to prove that circles are actually squares...
- rthrowayay 7y ago
  I tried to find statistics for this claim by looking at homicide risk but was unable to find anything supporting it. Possibly this is true in non-western countries. For example here is a look at the data that claims tran people are less at risk in the UK. https://www.google.com/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murd... I suspect there are lots of confounders if you wanted to isolate the risk that trans brings. For example apparently trans people have a higher rate of sex work which would increase the risk. On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if trans were coming from higher socio-economic groups on average which would lower the risk.
  - jaziek 7y ago
    Fair play for women is a notoriously anti trans organisation. I wouldn't go looking for trans related statistics there.
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    I know this is late but from what I recall trans women are approximately 4.3x more likely to be murdered(Trans people of color coalition and human rights campaign), and 1 out of 2 trans people have experienced violence (I forget where I've seen this).
    - TKWasRight 7y ago
      So what is that, like 10 people total? It seems like we're always blowing the importance of the trans community way out of proportion...there aren't that many of them and a lot of them end up committing suicide...they, as a group, aren't that important in terms of impact on society
- 55555 7y ago
  In the USA this doesnt seem to be true. I just looked up the stats. 23 and 27 murders of trans individuals in US over past 2 years. Avg US homicide rate is 5 deaths per 100,000 per year. There are roughly 1.5 million trans individuals so you'd expect 75 or so. However margin of error and confounding variables are massive so my point is just that it seems roughly normal, not that it's safer to be trans. This despite 15% of female transgenders having worked at some time in the sex industry, more involvement with drugs, etc. If you want some crazy (depressing) stats, look up trans suicide rates. Although I would speculate that only like 1 in 40 attempts succeeds.
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    I know this is late but from what I recall trans women are approximately 4.3x more likely to be murdered(Trans people of color coalition and human rights campaign), and 1 out of 2 trans people have experienced violence (I forget where I've seen this).
    - Veen 7y ago
      As a counterpoint, ten trans people were murdered in the UK in the last ten years. About one per year in a population of of 66 million. A high estimate of the number of trans people in the UK is around 500,000. On average, there is a one in one hundred thousand chance of being murdered in the UK each year. Given those figures, trans people are considerably less likely to be murdered than non-trans people. Even if we take the lowest estimate of the number of trans people I've seen — around 200,000 — non-trans people are still twice as likely to be murdered as trans people. https://transrespect.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/TvT_TMM_TDoR2018_Tables_EN.pdf https://transrespect.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/TvT_TMM_... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... (And I don't think Milo is responsible for a single one of those murders)
ggggtez 7y ago
That's not what the above poster said, and you know it. You say "marginally", "anyone", "mocking". But the people in question aren't anyone, and they aren't just mocking. There are specific cases of them calling on their fans to harass private citizens. Anyone with some semblance of awareness of US law knows free speech is not without limits. No one is entitled to online speech, believe it or not.
- naasking 7y ago
  > No one is entitled to online speech, believe it or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_Internet_access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_Internet_access
  - viraptor 7y ago
    This is not relevant. Some people get the right to internet access. They don't get the right to say what they want where they want without moderation.
    - naasking 7y ago
      Not irrelevant. The OP said that "no one is entitled to online speech". That's an unqualified statement which my link disproves. If they had instead qualified it as, "no one has a right to speech on Facebook", that's a different claim (arguably also false depending on the circumstances).
      - belltaco 7y ago
        The post is about the US, your link shows the right exists only in about 6 countries, none of which are the US.So it's irrelevant.
        naasking 7y ago
        Once again, the statement was unqualified, "no one has the right to..." And once again, my link literally proves this statement to be false, because as you just admitted, at least some people do have that right.

ehsankia 7y ago

Indeed, Milo is not too different from Info Wars. These people use the classic tactic of saying something insanely outlandish, and when they are called out on it, they just use the "I was obviously sarcastic" card. Even if they are just joking, their followers most definitely take their message at face value, and that's exactly why they are dangerous.

cat199 7y ago
> These people use the classic tactic of saying something insanely outlandish, and when they are called out on it, they just use the "I was obviously sarcastic" card. So, like, the 'Saturday Night Live Card'?
- berbec 7y ago
  Do you not find a difference between a show that bills itself as comedy and satire and a site that bills itself as news and info?
  - cat199 7y ago
    Sure, but net effect is the same - saying something hugely biased and hiding behind a screen of humor (legitimate or not) to allow it to be said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_within_a_story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_within_a_story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend_Update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend_Update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester
  - neetdeth 7y ago
    The former can be just as disingenuous as the latter. Jon Stewart wielded immense political influence amongst the under-30 crowd, but whenever seriously challenged, hid behind the defense of comedy. Yiannopoulos consistently billed himself as a provocateur, little different from a Coulter or Maher. People have been blending news, entertainment, and polemic together for centuries and it's not going to stop because some people want to codify rules of Serious Journalism and impose them universally across the Internet.

wyoh 7y ago

I've heard people against seeing him on campus say that, but never seen any actual proof of him doing it or even threatening to do it.

dashundchen 7y ago
Pretty easy to find multiple incidents of him saying threatening things, or inciting his unhinged fan base to do horrible things to people, and ducking under "I was joking", or "free speech". These trolls know exactly what they are type of harm they are causing when they walk the line of harassment. I'm of the opinion trolls like him should be given zero media attention. Anecdotally after his twitter ban I rarely saw him in the headlines like a few years ago. I am hoping media editors are starting to see when they are getting played for headlines. https://www.dailycal.org/2017/09/21/uc-berkeley-students-harassed-after-milo-yiannopoulos-publicly-identifies-them/ https://www.dailycal.org/2017/09/21/uc-berkeley-students-har... > Milo Yiannopoulos publicly posted the photos and identifying information of ASUC Senator Juniperangelica Cordova-Goff and campus doctoral student Adam Jadhav on Wednesday, spurring harassment from his supporters. https://www.advocate.com/people/2018/6/28/milo-says-death-threat-was-joke-hopes-shooter-trans https://www.advocate.com/people/2018/6/28/milo-says-death-th... > Milo Yiannopoulos said he was joking when he sent a text message to reporters, "I can’t wait for the vigilante squads to start gunning journalists down on sight." > The remark made the gay right-wing provocateur a trending topic on social media, following the Thursday shooting of the newsroom of the Capital Gazette in Annapolis, Md. https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/01/27/24830371/uw-professor-gets-doxxed-after-milo-yiannopoulos-protests https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/01/27/24830371/uw-prof... > In addition to internet doxxing, Weatherford says, his sense of physical safety on campus has been severely compromised: > They have spammed my UW email account with listserve confirmations; they know where my office is in addition to my office hours; and I have started to receive packages to my departmental mailbox, some of which hinted to include Pepe the frog figurines (an image often sent to victims of online harassment). [...] There is even a post that is attempting to find the bus that I ride in order to further harass me. And, I later learned that night that they know my biological mother’s personal information.