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TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

355 points by danso 8y ago

jontaydev 8y ago
Can anybody suggest an alternative program that will help me file? I know I could probably do this myself, but I prefer having software validate my returns. It seems like this is something an indie developer could create, but maybe its too complicated and too risky?
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Freefile on irs.gov and the pdf of the 1040 instructions. Just because some software validates doesn't release you from the liability, so if you actually have a complicated situation, I'd find a qualified tax professional or read through the myriad IRS rules and regs.
  - e40 8y ago
    Does this do validation?
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      I’m not sure what validation means, but it does auto calculate and tell you if things don’t add up.
- jms703 8y ago
  I don't see how anyone can produce tax software, resolve bugs and issues, and keep it up to date with current tax code without charging money for it. It's too bad that paying taxes is this difficult.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    That's why it's a good idea to pay the IRS with tax dollars to create their own free efile facility.
    - raverbashing 8y ago
      That's exactly the answer
  - pnutjam 8y ago
    I use these guys: https://www.freetax.com/#about https://www.freetax.com/#about There storefronts always looked a bit skeevy to me, but they've never charged me a dime for this product and I've used it for 3 years.
- untog 8y ago
  I've had great experiences with FreeTaxUSA, though they still charge for state returns. I have wondered before now why a non-profit couldn't set up an entirely free site and ask for donations.
  - mandeepj 8y ago
    Not sure about other States but IL has a free State tax filing site - https://mytax.illinois.gov https://mytax.illinois.gov
    - Rebelgecko 8y ago
      As does California, although you can't use it if you have capital gains or a few other specific things to put on your return.
- homero 8y ago
  Credit karma doesn't even have a paid option
- 1121redblackgo 8y ago
  Credit Karma swooped into the game this year and offered free tax return filing. The software worked well for me and my simple return, and expect it could work well for medium complexity problems as well. I have no doubt that they will try to monitize in the future, but until they do, this seems like a good deal for consumers
  - jsnider3 8y ago
    It seems obvious that Credit Karma would try to monetize it by using your tax data to advertise credit cards and loans to you. Just a little bit of surveillance capitalism to help you save money.
- arachnids 8y ago
  Credit karma lets you file both federal and state for free . CreditKarma's filing service is pretty new, so there are lots of edge cases they don't handle well or at all (for example the UI to enter stock trades is awful). I put my numbers into TurboTax and CreditKarma to make sure they match for validation, then filed with CreditKarma. You give them a lot of data about you that they then use to sell you insurance and loans and so on, but I actually find their services useful so I consider that a fair trade.
  - notTyler 8y ago
    I used CK the past two years and started getting a ton of robocalls and credit card offers. Not to mention my college that never had my phone number previously started calling me on a weekly basis hounding me for donations.
    - asdff 8y ago
      Robocalls have been on the rise the past few years for everyone.
- siosonel 8y ago
  I haven't used this online spreadsheet, but saw it mentioned in a HN discussion earlier this year: https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/ https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/
- broknbottle 8y ago
  http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/ http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/
- tathougies 8y ago
  > indie developer could create, but maybe its too complicated and too risky? The amount of liability you would take on is insane. For the most part, I don't understand the difficulty. You can pick up a copy of the 1040 and the instructions from most public libraries. Then, you just follow the instructions. It's like reading a program. You literally just follow the instructions.
rdonohue 8y ago
Although it doesn't do the filing for you this guy has a great excel program that handles many tax forms. I have been using his stuff for years. https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/home/ https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/home/
- HEHENE 8y ago
  It's funny how sometimes the best utilities are just really complex Excel sheets. Amazing how versatile Excel can be. I homebrew beer and use a tool called Bru'n Water to calculate what adjustments I need to make to my source water to match the characteristics of the style of beer. Once again it's just a massive excel file. Water and style information goes in, water additions (calcium sulfate, lactic acid, etc) comes out. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/
neya 8y ago
Just curious, is there any value to making a clone of H&R Block / Intuit and making it open source (with also hosted somewhere)? It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this and I'll be happy to do it if there is significant interest from my fellow HNers. Besides, fuck Intuit, never been a fan of them for the exact reasons mentioned in the article.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Ideally, you support potential candidates and existing representatives who will push public policy to enable the IRS (with help from the US Digital Service and 18F) to provide for tax filing directly to US taxpayers. This is the Path To Assured Success (public policy enabling and funding the IRS to directly support tax filing). I can't imagine anyone having the will and resources to write their own tax prep system and then providing ongoing support for it though. Gonna take deep pockets and someone who really hates the professional tax prep market. It isn't a weekend project. This is a long, thankless grind. https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senator-warren-leads-colleagues-in-reintroducing-legislation-to-simplify-and-decrease-the-costs-of-tax-preparation-and-filing https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senato... (Senator Warren Leads Colleagues in Reintroducing Legislation to Simplify and Decrease the Costs of Tax Preparation and Filing) These are the people you help get the bill passed: > United States Senators Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) along with Senators Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.), Tammy Baldwin (D-Wis.), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Tom Udall (D-N.M.), Edward J. Markey (D-Mass.), Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.), Maggie Hassan (D-N.H.), Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.), Cory Booker (D-N.J.), and Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) today reintroduced the Tax Filing Simplification Act to ease the tax filing process for millions of American taxpayers and reduce their costs. Last tax season, American taxpayers spent an average of 11 hours and around $200 preparing their tax returns -- a cost equal to almost 10 percent of the average federal tax refund. Representative Brad Sherman (D-Calif.) is reintroducing a House companion along with Representatives Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.), Don Beyer (D-Va.), Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), Tim Ryan (D-Ohio), Katie Hill (D-Calif.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), and Jackie Speier (D-Calif.). Please call your representative and ask them to support this legislation. That is their job; to support the legislation you want enacted. It will take you at most ~15 minutes, and every call is tallied by congressional assistants. https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/ https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/
starpilot 8y ago
How many articles are we going to have on this?
- sctb 8y ago
  It's alright to flag stories (and hold off on commenting) if you feel they're getting more than their fair share of coverage.
- geodel 8y ago
  I feel like at least 1-2 times per week until next tax season and perhaps daily once W2s start coming in for 2019. Free tax filing seems one of the biggest issue people are facing in USA.
  - Amezarak 8y ago
    Most people don’t think twice about it. Tax simplification is supported so long as everyone’s tax bill goes down, but huge swaths if the population are utterly convinced that paying an accountant to do their simple W2 taxes is way better than using software or doing it themselves or letting the IRS do it because they think they have a magical ability to get more back by their arcane knowledge of mystical loopholes. I have had this discussion many many times with many people.
- danso 8y ago
  I'll explain my submission (I submitted the other article 6 days ago too): the tax reform bill, which would have enshrined tax prep companies to be the approved providers of free file tax software, had wide bipartisan support and was considered a likely shoo-in to be signed into law (it didn't even require a roll call vote in the House). But people, including advocates and reporters, discovered the directives in robots.txt and <meta> tags, which have been out-in-plain-sight for at least a decade [0], and that has apparently led former employees to speak out and/or leak internal documents that will very likely lead to an investigation. Tax prep companies have spent millions per year in lobbying, and now a major, easy legislative victory may be spoiled because of robots.txt. It's pretty rare that we see grass-roots complaints actually stymie a popular bipartisan bill supported by industry lobbyists, nevermind because of a webdev technical issue. [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20080512004753/http://turbotax.intuit.com/robots.txt http://web.archive.org/web/20080512004753/http://turbotax.in...
danso 8y ago
FWIW, Turbotax/H&R's hiding of their Free File site pages was discussed here about a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 They have since made their pages discoverable by search engines and have denied that it was intentional obfuscation. But the news in TFA is that apparently someone at (or formerly at) H&R leaked internal documents with explicit guidance: > “Do not send clients to this Web Site unless they are specifically calling about the Free File program,” the guidance states, referring to the site with the company’s free option. “We want to send users to our paid products before the free product, if at all possible.” (there's also interviews with former employees recalling meetings) This is all "news" because Congress is considering a bipartisan tax reform bill that includes a law that would block the IRS from creating its own official Free File program. Senator Ron Wyden, the bill's co-sponsor, is now having second thoughts [0] and yesterday, NY Gov. Cuomo ordered a state investigation into the tax prep companies [1]. [0] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/taxpayer-first-act-free-file_n_5cc9fb90e4b0d123954db6f4 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/taxpayer-first-act-free-file_... [1] https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-calls-department-financial-services-and-department-taxation-and-finance https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-calls-depart... edit: changed "permanently block" to "block"
- lern_too_spel 8y ago
  There is nothing in the law that would permanently prohibit the IRS from creating its own Free File program. Your first article even suggests that one modification would be to simply add that a sentence saying that the IRS is allowed to do that, and the change is that simple because that sentence would not contradict anything else in the bill, as Wyden initially explained. The concern is that putting the Free File program into law would somehow make it less likely that the IRS would create its own program.
  - danso 8y ago
    Yes you're right, I meant to write "block" and remove "permanently", because Sen. Wyden said he was told that the law would allow the IRS to make a proposal: https://www.vox.com/2019/4/9/18301943/last-minute-tax-preparation-h-r-block-turbotax https://www.vox.com/2019/4/9/18301943/last-minute-tax-prepar... > (UPDATE: After this post was published, Senate finance ranking member Ron Wyden’s office pushed back on Elliott’s report, saying they’d received confirmation from the IRS chief tax counsel that the bill as written does not bar the IRS from designing their own direct filing product, if they give 12 months’ notice. It’s likely the tax prep industry would challenge the IRS if it tried to do that.) According to Bloomberg, rewriting the law might require sending it back to the House for a new vote: https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/senate-may-not-ease-qualms-over-irs-free-file-grassley https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/senate-may-no...
notTyler 8y ago
Capitalism at work here. A majority of lawmakers are for sale and apparently half the country doesn't care about it. As long as these companies keep stuffing the pockets of elected officials there will be no reprimand.
- nichos 8y ago
  This is crony capitalism, NOT capitalism. There's a big difference.
jwiley 8y ago
I've heard anecdotally from people working in non-profit agencies assisting with tax preparation that there was extensive lobbying to prevent changes that would make it easier to file for the earned income tax credit. The average return for those applicable is ~$2,500, which is a huge amount for people who qualify, lost so Intuit and H&R block can better market their product. https://www.eitc.irs.gov/partner-toolkit/basic-marketing-communication-materials/eitc-fast-facts/eitc-fast-facts https://www.eitc.irs.gov/partner-toolkit/basic-marketing-com... https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/04/30/researchers-say-theres-simple-way-reduce-suicides-increase-minimum-wage/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.01bbed4bc306 https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/04/30/research...
Animats 8y ago
A similar trick exists for credit reports. The real site for Government-mandated free credit reports: https://www.annualcreditreport.com https://www.annualcreditreport.com (See "https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/how-do-i-get-a-copy-of-my-credit-reports-en-5/" https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/how-do-i-get-a-copy...) The highly publicized deceptive site designed to get you to sign up for a service you don't need: https://www.freecreditreport.com/ https://www.freecreditreport.com/
- koolba 8y ago
  The fact that the “real” website doesn’t have a .gov tld is an ongoing travesty.
flowersjeff 8y ago
"Saw" - "See", there - now that title is correct...
maire 8y ago
The issue is more than free filing. Everything seems to be broken. I helped my brother in law file for an extension through the IRS web site. The IRS directed us to private companies including TurboTax to file the extension. We clicked on the free TurboTax link which nowhere had an ability to file for an extension! I finally told my brother in law to print the extension form and mail it to the IRS. The IRS should not include a link to something that doesn't exist. Yikes!
- tathougies 8y ago
  > I finally told my brother in law to print the extension form and mail it to the IRS. What was wrong with this to begin with?
  - tomschlick 8y ago
    You're taking things that are already in a computer system (IRS Database of Income) and putting them back on paper to be snail mailed to them, then hopefully OCR'd or manually entered instead of directly inputting it to their website. Huge waste of time, taxpayer dollars, and prone to errors.
    - tathougies 8y ago
      an extension is already in the IRS database?
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Nothing. The problem is that the IRS themselves first direct you to TurboTax, which apparently doesn't actually solve your problem. Only if you dig deeper do you find that you can just print and mail in the form yourself.
    - tathougies 8y ago
      > Only if you dig deeper do you find that you can just print and mail in the form yourself. I guess I'm mainly shocked that mail wasn't seen as the preferred (or at least the most obvious) way of doing this. Mail, unlike online 'solutions', is documentable (copies + certified + delivery confirmation) and proven adequate for use in a courtroom. Also, pretty much all government communication can take place through it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
macspoofing 8y ago
The number of anti-TurboTax articles lately ... I get it, filing taxes could be easier but it isn't - on the scale of things to worry about, is it really that important? What about on the scale of things that government is inefficient at - does this rank in the top 1000? Again, I'm not saying we can't improve it, and I agree with calls for the IRS (and CRA) to send pre-filled forms. What I'm calling into question is the outsize coverage that this particular issue got over the last few weeks as certain Democratic nominees (Elizabeth Warren) decided this was the path to their relevance.
- GordonS 8y ago
  I'm a Brit, so ab outsider - but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? I'm not aufait with the US tax system, so please correct me if I've got that wrong.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    > isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? Yes, it's this exactly. Also, in my opinion, this is a great example of how a lot of the corruption of government by corporations is done, and is easy for pretty much anybody to understand.
  - macspoofing 8y ago
    >but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? Why would it be a 'big issue'? There is no human right to super easy tax filing. Interest groups, whether they be corps, or unions or activists, will lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain.
    - GordonS 8y ago
      > Why would it be a 'big issue'? Let me flip that around - why wouldn't it be? Surely corporations shouldn't have the power to change laws to let them squeeze citizens for every cent? Surely laws should be there for the benefit of the populace? > lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain Lobbying is indeed a thing in the UK, but not remotely to the degree it is in the US. And on this specific issue, there isn't even a remote possibility that the UK would legislate against free tax filing, regardless of ludicrous lobbying (and I say this as someone with a very low opinion of UK politics).
Shivetya 8y ago
I am not really in the camp of blaming either of these companies or any tax filing companies for issues like this. The real blame is Congress for making such a complex tax system will all their attempts to keep their offices secure. The tax system used to have meaning but generations of politicians found they could reward and punish with it and they did so with abandon. The system should never had become so complex as to need a program. If your middle class or higher the chances you need more than 1040A/1040EZ put you into the category it just isn't worth the risk to do them without guidance and that is where Congress should be taken to task. Now one good effect of that "Republican" tax change was the standard deduction got pushed so high most people will never need to itemize again. It also increased the progressiveness of the tax system by that and other changes. I guess if we cannot rid ourselves of all those tax laws that make itemization the punish/reward system it is then just raising the standard deduction is best.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > I am not really in the camp of blaming either of these companies or any tax filing companies for issues like this. I am. When companies behave like scumbags, I have no problem with calling them scumbags. I agree with you that Congress gets a heaping helping of blame as well, though.
- hunter23 8y ago
  > The system should never had become so complex as to need a program. Actually there were bills in congress that would have made it so a program wasn't needed because the government would file on your behalf (https://slate.com/business/2019/04/turbotax-bipartisan-tax-filing-bill-win-for-lobbyists-ron-wyden.html https://slate.com/business/2019/04/turbotax-bipartisan-tax-f...). In most cases the government knows enough about you to calculate your taxes for you. Turbotax lobbied the government to kill these bills because it would have destroyed their business model. So the reason you have to use a complicated form or program to file, is entirely Turbotax's fault because they have lobbied the government from making it simpler for users. Of course a bigger root cause is that lobbying is undermining our democracy.
  - 8y ago
alkonaut 8y ago
If they signed a deal with the IRS how come they stil control how the product is displayed? Shouldn’t this free filing app be part of the IRS site, or directly linked from the IRS site (click here to file your taxes...)?
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f... I haven't tried it, and some people tell of getting the runaround when trying to actually use it, but there it is.
  - PhantomGremlin 8y ago
    Yes, there it is. That page is literally 1 click from the main irs.gov site. Granted, it's "below the fold", most people will have to scroll down just a little bit. But there it is: IRS Free File. Go ahead, naysayers, downvote me all you want, but I'll say this: if you can't find that page and investigate if it applies to you, then you deserve to pay to file. It's a totally different discussion if the links from the IRS site lead to dark patterns and tricks. That's a legitimate topic of discussion. But not the existence of IRS Free File itself. That's just fine. About the only way it could be easier to find that page would be if it were "above the fold".
    - zerd 8y ago
      Most people won't type in https://www.irs.gov/ https://www.irs.gov/ directly, they will start with a search. Here's what might happen: https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you-into-paying-to-file-your-taxes https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you...
      - PhantomGremlin 8y ago
        Most people won't type in https://www.irs.gov/ https://www.irs.gov/ directly I didn't type that directly either. I just typed irs.gov and magically wound up in the right place. :) But you're right, most people don't grok the WWW enough to go directly to a site. Which, as an engineer, drives me crazy. I don't want magic, I want to understand what's happening. I need to understand what's happening.
rhacker 8y ago
I used to use TaxActOnline but this year it was asking for $80 simply because I had a 1099 for a couple months of 2018. I switched to FreeTaxUSA and did everything for free (well for me because I live in TEXAS)... I definitely think the US should have it's own system that individual states can extend however. The so-called "free" ones find any reason they can to swindle you. I used TaxActOnline exclusively for all my taxes for the past 15 years and never paid more than $12 for any given year - so I will never be using them again.
- BostonEnginerd 8y ago
  FreeTaxUSA seems to work pretty well. I'll gladly pay $15 for help walking through the process. $80 is just unreasonable.
dvorak365 8y ago
It would be amazing if the US had an equivalent of the CBO for determining the impact of legislation on the annual total of labor-hours. Are there any estimates how many less labor-hours would be necessary if the US handled tax returns more efficiently (eg. sent out prefilled forms)?

355 points by danso 8y ago

Can anybody suggest an alternative program that will help me file? I know I could probably do this myself, but I prefer having software validate my returns. It seems like this is something an indie developer could create, but maybe its too complicated and too risky?

lotsofpulp 8y ago
Freefile on irs.gov and the pdf of the 1040 instructions. Just because some software validates doesn't release you from the liability, so if you actually have a complicated situation, I'd find a qualified tax professional or read through the myriad IRS rules and regs.
- e40 8y ago
  Does this do validation?
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    I’m not sure what validation means, but it does auto calculate and tell you if things don’t add up.
jms703 8y ago
I don't see how anyone can produce tax software, resolve bugs and issues, and keep it up to date with current tax code without charging money for it. It's too bad that paying taxes is this difficult.
- rhizome 8y ago
  That's why it's a good idea to pay the IRS with tax dollars to create their own free efile facility.
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    That's exactly the answer
- pnutjam 8y ago
  I use these guys: https://www.freetax.com/#about https://www.freetax.com/#about There storefronts always looked a bit skeevy to me, but they've never charged me a dime for this product and I've used it for 3 years.
untog 8y ago
I've had great experiences with FreeTaxUSA, though they still charge for state returns. I have wondered before now why a non-profit couldn't set up an entirely free site and ask for donations.
- mandeepj 8y ago
  Not sure about other States but IL has a free State tax filing site - https://mytax.illinois.gov https://mytax.illinois.gov
  - Rebelgecko 8y ago
    As does California, although you can't use it if you have capital gains or a few other specific things to put on your return.
homero 8y ago
Credit karma doesn't even have a paid option
1121redblackgo 8y ago
Credit Karma swooped into the game this year and offered free tax return filing. The software worked well for me and my simple return, and expect it could work well for medium complexity problems as well. I have no doubt that they will try to monitize in the future, but until they do, this seems like a good deal for consumers
- jsnider3 8y ago
  It seems obvious that Credit Karma would try to monetize it by using your tax data to advertise credit cards and loans to you. Just a little bit of surveillance capitalism to help you save money.
arachnids 8y ago
Credit karma lets you file both federal and state for free . CreditKarma's filing service is pretty new, so there are lots of edge cases they don't handle well or at all (for example the UI to enter stock trades is awful). I put my numbers into TurboTax and CreditKarma to make sure they match for validation, then filed with CreditKarma. You give them a lot of data about you that they then use to sell you insurance and loans and so on, but I actually find their services useful so I consider that a fair trade.
- notTyler 8y ago
  I used CK the past two years and started getting a ton of robocalls and credit card offers. Not to mention my college that never had my phone number previously started calling me on a weekly basis hounding me for donations.
  - asdff 8y ago
    Robocalls have been on the rise the past few years for everyone.
siosonel 8y ago
I haven't used this online spreadsheet, but saw it mentioned in a HN discussion earlier this year: https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/ https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/
broknbottle 8y ago
http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/ http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/
tathougies 8y ago
> indie developer could create, but maybe its too complicated and too risky? The amount of liability you would take on is insane. For the most part, I don't understand the difficulty. You can pick up a copy of the 1040 and the instructions from most public libraries. Then, you just follow the instructions. It's like reading a program. You literally just follow the instructions.

rdonohue 8y ago

Although it doesn't do the filing for you this guy has a great excel program that handles many tax forms. I have been using his stuff for years. https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/home/ https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/home/

HEHENE 8y ago
It's funny how sometimes the best utilities are just really complex Excel sheets. Amazing how versatile Excel can be. I homebrew beer and use a tool called Bru'n Water to calculate what adjustments I need to make to my source water to match the characteristics of the style of beer. Once again it's just a massive excel file. Water and style information goes in, water additions (calcium sulfate, lactic acid, etc) comes out. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

neya 8y ago

Just curious, is there any value to making a clone of H&R Block / Intuit and making it open source (with also hosted somewhere)? It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this and I'll be happy to do it if there is significant interest from my fellow HNers. Besides, fuck Intuit, never been a fan of them for the exact reasons mentioned in the article.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Ideally, you support potential candidates and existing representatives who will push public policy to enable the IRS (with help from the US Digital Service and 18F) to provide for tax filing directly to US taxpayers. This is the Path To Assured Success (public policy enabling and funding the IRS to directly support tax filing). I can't imagine anyone having the will and resources to write their own tax prep system and then providing ongoing support for it though. Gonna take deep pockets and someone who really hates the professional tax prep market. It isn't a weekend project. This is a long, thankless grind. https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senator-warren-leads-colleagues-in-reintroducing-legislation-to-simplify-and-decrease-the-costs-of-tax-preparation-and-filing https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/senato... (Senator Warren Leads Colleagues in Reintroducing Legislation to Simplify and Decrease the Costs of Tax Preparation and Filing) These are the people you help get the bill passed: > United States Senators Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) along with Senators Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.), Tammy Baldwin (D-Wis.), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Tom Udall (D-N.M.), Edward J. Markey (D-Mass.), Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.), Maggie Hassan (D-N.H.), Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.), Cory Booker (D-N.J.), and Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) today reintroduced the Tax Filing Simplification Act to ease the tax filing process for millions of American taxpayers and reduce their costs. Last tax season, American taxpayers spent an average of 11 hours and around $200 preparing their tax returns -- a cost equal to almost 10 percent of the average federal tax refund. Representative Brad Sherman (D-Calif.) is reintroducing a House companion along with Representatives Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.), Don Beyer (D-Va.), Jamie Raskin (D-Md.), Tim Ryan (D-Ohio), Katie Hill (D-Calif.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), and Jackie Speier (D-Calif.). Please call your representative and ask them to support this legislation. That is their job; to support the legislation you want enacted. It will take you at most ~15 minutes, and every call is tallied by congressional assistants. https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/ https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/

starpilot 8y ago

How many articles are we going to have on this?

sctb 8y ago
It's alright to flag stories (and hold off on commenting) if you feel they're getting more than their fair share of coverage.
geodel 8y ago
I feel like at least 1-2 times per week until next tax season and perhaps daily once W2s start coming in for 2019. Free tax filing seems one of the biggest issue people are facing in USA.
- Amezarak 8y ago
  Most people don’t think twice about it. Tax simplification is supported so long as everyone’s tax bill goes down, but huge swaths if the population are utterly convinced that paying an accountant to do their simple W2 taxes is way better than using software or doing it themselves or letting the IRS do it because they think they have a magical ability to get more back by their arcane knowledge of mystical loopholes. I have had this discussion many many times with many people.
danso 8y ago
I'll explain my submission (I submitted the other article 6 days ago too): the tax reform bill, which would have enshrined tax prep companies to be the approved providers of free file tax software, had wide bipartisan support and was considered a likely shoo-in to be signed into law (it didn't even require a roll call vote in the House). But people, including advocates and reporters, discovered the directives in robots.txt and <meta> tags, which have been out-in-plain-sight for at least a decade [0], and that has apparently led former employees to speak out and/or leak internal documents that will very likely lead to an investigation. Tax prep companies have spent millions per year in lobbying, and now a major, easy legislative victory may be spoiled because of robots.txt. It's pretty rare that we see grass-roots complaints actually stymie a popular bipartisan bill supported by industry lobbyists, nevermind because of a webdev technical issue. [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20080512004753/http://turbotax.intuit.com/robots.txt http://web.archive.org/web/20080512004753/http://turbotax.in...

danso 8y ago

FWIW, Turbotax/H&R's hiding of their Free File site pages was discussed here about a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 They have since made their pages discoverable by search engines and have denied that it was intentional obfuscation. But the news in TFA is that apparently someone at (or formerly at) H&R leaked internal documents with explicit guidance: > “Do not send clients to this Web Site unless they are specifically calling about the Free File program,” the guidance states, referring to the site with the company’s free option. “We want to send users to our paid products before the free product, if at all possible.” (there's also interviews with former employees recalling meetings) This is all "news" because Congress is considering a bipartisan tax reform bill that includes a law that would block the IRS from creating its own official Free File program. Senator Ron Wyden, the bill's co-sponsor, is now having second thoughts [0] and yesterday, NY Gov. Cuomo ordered a state investigation into the tax prep companies [1]. [0] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/taxpayer-first-act-free-file_n_5cc9fb90e4b0d123954db6f4 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/taxpayer-first-act-free-file_... [1] https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-calls-department-financial-services-and-department-taxation-and-finance https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-calls-depart... edit: changed "permanently block" to "block"

lern_too_spel 8y ago
There is nothing in the law that would permanently prohibit the IRS from creating its own Free File program. Your first article even suggests that one modification would be to simply add that a sentence saying that the IRS is allowed to do that, and the change is that simple because that sentence would not contradict anything else in the bill, as Wyden initially explained. The concern is that putting the Free File program into law would somehow make it less likely that the IRS would create its own program.
- danso 8y ago
  Yes you're right, I meant to write "block" and remove "permanently", because Sen. Wyden said he was told that the law would allow the IRS to make a proposal: https://www.vox.com/2019/4/9/18301943/last-minute-tax-preparation-h-r-block-turbotax https://www.vox.com/2019/4/9/18301943/last-minute-tax-prepar... > (UPDATE: After this post was published, Senate finance ranking member Ron Wyden’s office pushed back on Elliott’s report, saying they’d received confirmation from the IRS chief tax counsel that the bill as written does not bar the IRS from designing their own direct filing product, if they give 12 months’ notice. It’s likely the tax prep industry would challenge the IRS if it tried to do that.) According to Bloomberg, rewriting the law might require sending it back to the House for a new vote: https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/senate-may-not-ease-qualms-over-irs-free-file-grassley https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/senate-may-no...

notTyler 8y ago

Capitalism at work here. A majority of lawmakers are for sale and apparently half the country doesn't care about it. As long as these companies keep stuffing the pockets of elected officials there will be no reprimand.

nichos 8y ago
This is crony capitalism, NOT capitalism. There's a big difference.

jwiley 8y ago

I've heard anecdotally from people working in non-profit agencies assisting with tax preparation that there was extensive lobbying to prevent changes that would make it easier to file for the earned income tax credit. The average return for those applicable is ~$2,500, which is a huge amount for people who qualify, lost so Intuit and H&R block can better market their product. https://www.eitc.irs.gov/partner-toolkit/basic-marketing-communication-materials/eitc-fast-facts/eitc-fast-facts https://www.eitc.irs.gov/partner-toolkit/basic-marketing-com... https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/04/30/researchers-say-theres-simple-way-reduce-suicides-increase-minimum-wage/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.01bbed4bc306 https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/04/30/research...

Animats 8y ago

A similar trick exists for credit reports. The real site for Government-mandated free credit reports: https://www.annualcreditreport.com https://www.annualcreditreport.com (See "https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/how-do-i-get-a-copy-of-my-credit-reports-en-5/" https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/how-do-i-get-a-copy...) The highly publicized deceptive site designed to get you to sign up for a service you don't need: https://www.freecreditreport.com/ https://www.freecreditreport.com/

koolba 8y ago
The fact that the “real” website doesn’t have a .gov tld is an ongoing travesty.

flowersjeff 8y ago

"Saw" - "See", there - now that title is correct...

maire 8y ago

The issue is more than free filing. Everything seems to be broken. I helped my brother in law file for an extension through the IRS web site. The IRS directed us to private companies including TurboTax to file the extension. We clicked on the free TurboTax link which nowhere had an ability to file for an extension! I finally told my brother in law to print the extension form and mail it to the IRS. The IRS should not include a link to something that doesn't exist. Yikes!

tathougies 8y ago
> I finally told my brother in law to print the extension form and mail it to the IRS. What was wrong with this to begin with?
- tomschlick 8y ago
  You're taking things that are already in a computer system (IRS Database of Income) and putting them back on paper to be snail mailed to them, then hopefully OCR'd or manually entered instead of directly inputting it to their website. Huge waste of time, taxpayer dollars, and prone to errors.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    an extension is already in the IRS database?
- kelnos 8y ago
  Nothing. The problem is that the IRS themselves first direct you to TurboTax, which apparently doesn't actually solve your problem. Only if you dig deeper do you find that you can just print and mail in the form yourself.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    > Only if you dig deeper do you find that you can just print and mail in the form yourself. I guess I'm mainly shocked that mail wasn't seen as the preferred (or at least the most obvious) way of doing this. Mail, unlike online 'solutions', is documentable (copies + certified + delivery confirmation) and proven adequate for use in a courtroom. Also, pretty much all government communication can take place through it.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

macspoofing 8y ago

The number of anti-TurboTax articles lately ... I get it, filing taxes could be easier but it isn't - on the scale of things to worry about, is it really that important? What about on the scale of things that government is inefficient at - does this rank in the top 1000? Again, I'm not saying we can't improve it, and I agree with calls for the IRS (and CRA) to send pre-filled forms. What I'm calling into question is the outsize coverage that this particular issue got over the last few weeks as certain Democratic nominees (Elizabeth Warren) decided this was the path to their relevance.

GordonS 8y ago
I'm a Brit, so ab outsider - but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? I'm not aufait with the US tax system, so please correct me if I've got that wrong.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? Yes, it's this exactly. Also, in my opinion, this is a great example of how a lot of the corruption of government by corporations is done, and is easy for pretty much anybody to understand.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  >but isn't the big issue here that a private company has been able to successfully lobby to get laws changed to make it illegal for tax filing to be free? Why would it be a 'big issue'? There is no human right to super easy tax filing. Interest groups, whether they be corps, or unions or activists, will lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain.
  - GordonS 8y ago
    > Why would it be a 'big issue'? Let me flip that around - why wouldn't it be? Surely corporations shouldn't have the power to change laws to let them squeeze citizens for every cent? Surely laws should be there for the benefit of the populace? > lobby to get laws they like passed. Par for course whether you're in United States or Britain Lobbying is indeed a thing in the UK, but not remotely to the degree it is in the US. And on this specific issue, there isn't even a remote possibility that the UK would legislate against free tax filing, regardless of ludicrous lobbying (and I say this as someone with a very low opinion of UK politics).

Shivetya 8y ago

I am not really in the camp of blaming either of these companies or any tax filing companies for issues like this. The real blame is Congress for making such a complex tax system will all their attempts to keep their offices secure. The tax system used to have meaning but generations of politicians found they could reward and punish with it and they did so with abandon. The system should never had become so complex as to need a program. If your middle class or higher the chances you need more than 1040A/1040EZ put you into the category it just isn't worth the risk to do them without guidance and that is where Congress should be taken to task. Now one good effect of that "Republican" tax change was the standard deduction got pushed so high most people will never need to itemize again. It also increased the progressiveness of the tax system by that and other changes. I guess if we cannot rid ourselves of all those tax laws that make itemization the punish/reward system it is then just raising the standard deduction is best.

JohnFen 8y ago
> I am not really in the camp of blaming either of these companies or any tax filing companies for issues like this. I am. When companies behave like scumbags, I have no problem with calling them scumbags. I agree with you that Congress gets a heaping helping of blame as well, though.
hunter23 8y ago
> The system should never had become so complex as to need a program. Actually there were bills in congress that would have made it so a program wasn't needed because the government would file on your behalf (https://slate.com/business/2019/04/turbotax-bipartisan-tax-filing-bill-win-for-lobbyists-ron-wyden.html https://slate.com/business/2019/04/turbotax-bipartisan-tax-f...). In most cases the government knows enough about you to calculate your taxes for you. Turbotax lobbied the government to kill these bills because it would have destroyed their business model. So the reason you have to use a complicated form or program to file, is entirely Turbotax's fault because they have lobbied the government from making it simpler for users. Of course a bigger root cause is that lobbying is undermining our democracy.
- 8y ago

alkonaut 8y ago

If they signed a deal with the IRS how come they stil control how the product is displayed? Shouldn’t this free filing app be part of the IRS site, or directly linked from the IRS site (click here to file your taxes...)?

vonmoltke 8y ago
https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f... I haven't tried it, and some people tell of getting the runaround when trying to actually use it, but there it is.
- PhantomGremlin 8y ago
  Yes, there it is. That page is literally 1 click from the main irs.gov site. Granted, it's "below the fold", most people will have to scroll down just a little bit. But there it is: IRS Free File. Go ahead, naysayers, downvote me all you want, but I'll say this: if you can't find that page and investigate if it applies to you, then you deserve to pay to file. It's a totally different discussion if the links from the IRS site lead to dark patterns and tricks. That's a legitimate topic of discussion. But not the existence of IRS Free File itself. That's just fine. About the only way it could be easier to find that page would be if it were "above the fold".
  - zerd 8y ago
    Most people won't type in https://www.irs.gov/ https://www.irs.gov/ directly, they will start with a search. Here's what might happen: https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you-into-paying-to-file-your-taxes https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you...
    - PhantomGremlin 8y ago
      Most people won't type in https://www.irs.gov/ https://www.irs.gov/ directly I didn't type that directly either. I just typed irs.gov and magically wound up in the right place. :) But you're right, most people don't grok the WWW enough to go directly to a site. Which, as an engineer, drives me crazy. I don't want magic, I want to understand what's happening. I need to understand what's happening.

rhacker 8y ago

I used to use TaxActOnline but this year it was asking for $80 simply because I had a 1099 for a couple months of 2018. I switched to FreeTaxUSA and did everything for free (well for me because I live in TEXAS)... I definitely think the US should have it's own system that individual states can extend however. The so-called "free" ones find any reason they can to swindle you. I used TaxActOnline exclusively for all my taxes for the past 15 years and never paid more than $12 for any given year - so I will never be using them again.

BostonEnginerd 8y ago
FreeTaxUSA seems to work pretty well. I'll gladly pay $15 for help walking through the process. $80 is just unreasonable.

dvorak365 8y ago

It would be amazing if the US had an equivalent of the CBO for determining the impact of legislation on the annual total of labor-hours. Are there any estimates how many less labor-hours would be necessary if the US handled tax returns more efficiently (eg. sent out prefilled forms)?