6 ms·

If people don't pay for software maintenance, e.g. Windows 10 updates, what do you do? Ads, harvest data... Windows (likely) always could offer better privacy

If people don't pay for software maintenance, e.g. Windows 10 updates, what do you do? Ads, harvest data... Windows (likely) always could offer better privacy for a fee. You can buy a Windows computer incl. services at a price point you can only dream of Apple hardware. Facebook/Inst/Wapp and Google show that the majority of people go with 'Geiz ist geil' (cheap is cool), privacy be damned. Awareness doesn't necessarily lead to actions (read: payments).

kuzehanka 7y ago
Linux seems to be doing just fine keeping software maintained without ads or harvesting data. This mindset is toxic and needs to die.
- MagicPropmaker 7y ago
  Oh yes! They're taking the desktop by storm!
  - saghm 7y ago
    I think it's a lot more plausible that Microsoft could still do fine with Windows if they took out ads than that Linux would be doing much better in the desktop market if they started bundling in ads.
    - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
      I run Windows 10 as my primary operating system. We do Erlang, and C++/CUDA programming here. Are there ads? I've never seen anything other than a very occasional promotional tile for a Microsoft product. Apple cross-promotes, too.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Fine among our crowd but how many non technical people are using Linux?
  - kuzehanka 7y ago
    Uhh. The entire world? The internet doesn't run on IIS.
    - belltaco 7y ago
      There are no ads in IIS or Windows Server. By your logic every developer is a Windows user, since they use Stack Overflow that runs on Windows, IIS and SQL Server.
    - chillacy 7y ago
      > non-technical people And you bring up internet infrastructure?
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    Virtually everyone who owns a cell phone that's not an iPhone. Android apps tend to be ad-supported, though, so not sure if that really helps the point. There's also the TVs, set top boxes, refrigerators, and cars (among many other consumer-facing devices) that run Linux (which completely displaced Windows CE).
    - Nextgrid 7y ago
      We’re talking about using a Linux operating system to replace Windows. I don’t think bringing up where the Linux kernel is used alone is relevant.
      - yellowapple 7y ago
        Linux is the kernel, though (and debatably also the application API/ABI). That's all it is. At the risk of sounding like some Richard Stallman wannabe, your complaints should be directed at GNU (or perhaps GNOME or KDE). Trying to argue "well those don't count because they're not real Linux" is 1) blatantly false and 2) a textbook case of a No True Scotsman fallacy. Linux is Linux, regardless of which userland happens to be running on it.
- belltaco 7y ago
  The Ubuntu fiasco comes to mind. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/07/stallman_on_ubuntu_spyware/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/07/stallman_on_ubuntu_...
  - AsyncAwait 7y ago
    Canonical does not maintain most of the software that comes with Ubuntu, at least not exclusively.
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      That article is about spyware Canonical themselves developed and baked into the desktop environment they developed specifically for Ubuntu.
      - AsyncAwait 7y ago
        I know, my point is that the most complex pieces of software within Ubuntu are not primarily developed by Canonical and thus it's possible to maintain complex Linux software without having ads and tracking. The fact that Canonical had developed spyware has nothing to do with the Linux kernel, glibc, bash, GNOME, systemd, PulseAudio, all of which prove that you don't need ads and tracking to maintain Linux software.
- bradford 7y ago
  [disclosure, MS employee] With the absence of telemetry, how do you know Linux is doing just fine? (specifically in the desktop world, not server world). Microsoft has an interest in knowing how well Windows is doing, and Windows has lived in a world both with and without telemetry. It was way, way harder to gauge success prior to telemetry, and it was also much more frustrating for the user to communicate their problems. I don't think Windows could have stayed in the pre-telemetry engineering world and maintained its position as a competitive desktop OS. I ask this mostly out of ignorance, I've got experience using Linux, but I really don't know what the dev-loop is like for active engineers.
  - user192837 7y ago
    Windows became the world's top desktop OS without telemetry. Please stop this "we harvest your data to make our product better for you" excuse because it is offensive for us customers. Don't put it on us users. We did not ask for that. Just say that it's because everyone is doing, or to better profit or whatever unethical reasons you have.
  - chappi42 7y ago
    > I don't think Windows could have stayed in the pre-telemetry engineering world You (Microsoft) shouldn't enforce people to send telemetry. Ask kindly and I suppose you'd get a better response. (VSC is a good example how it could/should be done)
  - kuzehanka 7y ago
    What does telemetry have to do with the windows 10 start menu becoming a container for ads and not trivially removable partnered apps? There's nothing wrong with transparent, privacy-respecting, and configurable telemetry, but what windows 10 does is none of those. Trying to describe it as something that's good for the users comes off a bit disingenuous.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    > With the absence of telemetry, how do you know Linux is doing just fine? I look at Linux-focused communities on Reddit, Hacker News, etc (there’s always a good rant about Linux’s shortcomings). But that would, you know, mean you actually need to pay competent people that can understand the discourse and engage with the community, something you guys clearly don’t give a shit about (have you ever seen the Microsoft Support forums? It’s a disaster).
- lostmsu 7y ago
  > Linux seems to be doing just fine keeping software maintained without ads or harvesting data. Ugh. I am quite proficient with tech stuff, but last month trying Ubuntu 18.04 LTS on my desktop left me pretty disappointed. A hard no-no for anyone non-technical: the graphical login did not work until I manually switched to the text terminal and installed the latest NVidia driver (Titan V). And even now one of my screens does not wake up until I toggle it on/off. And no freeform per-screen DPI.
  - 1024core 7y ago
    > until I manually switched to the text terminal and installed the latest NVidia driver As an nVidia card owner, I feel your pain. It's a case of both sides (nVidia and Linux) digging their heels and refusing to cooperate.
  - cosmodisk 7y ago
    100% agree. Linux is great for developers or server admins but when it comes to an average Joe from the office,it is 20 years behind windows. It may look similar,it may feel a little similar but it is not.Most of the apps are complete shit, it is difficult to do things unless you an admin or technical user and etc. My job is split in half- one side is technical and I'd be happy with Linux, the other is a business user and this side will never switch to Linux,or not until all the MS products are ported to Linux.
- chappi42 7y ago
  > This mindset is toxic and needs to die A bit a more friendly reply would be appreciated.. What is toxic exactly? Linux (the Ubuntu desktop which I use) might do fine, but it needs to be financed also, developers need a salary. (Some) people donate, there seem to be 'some arrangements with e.g. Amazon' and - I suppose - the main funds currently come from Canonical using server edition income.
- quantummkv 7y ago
  The difference here is that most Linux users are capable of filing detailed bug reports and work on solving them. And many do so. By contrast most Windows users consider bugs to be something that requires an anti-bug spray.
tabtab 7y ago
Re: Windows (likely) always could offer better privacy for a fee. This could fuel class complaints that the poor will be snooped on more than the rich.
avtar 7y ago
> Windows (likely) always could offer better privacy for a fee. You can buy a Windows computer incl. IMO what I paid for my Windows Pro license is already that fee and then some.
- cjarrett 7y ago
  Additionally, this was the biggest selling point of Windows Phone. It died, and so did the Security/privacy mindset.
  - bradford 7y ago
    If I'm interpreting you correctly, you're making two points, and neither of them are entirely correct: 1) Microsoft had telemetry in Windows Phone. 2) The security/privacy mindset hasn't died alongside Windows Phone. I think it's actually gotten stronger, GDPR has been the biggest forcing function. [disclosure: MS employee, but my employer wants me to state that this is my opinion, not that of Microsoft]
    - cjarrett 7y ago
      certainly in Azure; I've also seen very big efforts towards privacy as the direct result of GDPR. Windows, I'm much less confident.
- chappi42 7y ago
  I also paid for the Windows Pro license, but I meant the continued maintenance and free (bi)yearly updates. IIRC the license was around 50 € this cannot cover the full cost for the (let's say) 5+ years computer lifetime support.

kuzehanka 7y ago

Linux seems to be doing just fine keeping software maintained without ads or harvesting data. This mindset is toxic and needs to die.

MagicPropmaker 7y ago
Oh yes! They're taking the desktop by storm!
- saghm 7y ago
  I think it's a lot more plausible that Microsoft could still do fine with Windows if they took out ads than that Linux would be doing much better in the desktop market if they started bundling in ads.
  - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
    I run Windows 10 as my primary operating system. We do Erlang, and C++/CUDA programming here. Are there ads? I've never seen anything other than a very occasional promotional tile for a Microsoft product. Apple cross-promotes, too.
chillacy 7y ago
Fine among our crowd but how many non technical people are using Linux?
- kuzehanka 7y ago
  Uhh. The entire world? The internet doesn't run on IIS.
  - belltaco 7y ago
    There are no ads in IIS or Windows Server. By your logic every developer is a Windows user, since they use Stack Overflow that runs on Windows, IIS and SQL Server.
  - chillacy 7y ago
    > non-technical people And you bring up internet infrastructure?
- yellowapple 7y ago
  Virtually everyone who owns a cell phone that's not an iPhone. Android apps tend to be ad-supported, though, so not sure if that really helps the point. There's also the TVs, set top boxes, refrigerators, and cars (among many other consumer-facing devices) that run Linux (which completely displaced Windows CE).
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    We’re talking about using a Linux operating system to replace Windows. I don’t think bringing up where the Linux kernel is used alone is relevant.
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      Linux is the kernel, though (and debatably also the application API/ABI). That's all it is. At the risk of sounding like some Richard Stallman wannabe, your complaints should be directed at GNU (or perhaps GNOME or KDE). Trying to argue "well those don't count because they're not real Linux" is 1) blatantly false and 2) a textbook case of a No True Scotsman fallacy. Linux is Linux, regardless of which userland happens to be running on it.
belltaco 7y ago
The Ubuntu fiasco comes to mind. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/07/stallman_on_ubuntu_spyware/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/07/stallman_on_ubuntu_...
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  Canonical does not maintain most of the software that comes with Ubuntu, at least not exclusively.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    That article is about spyware Canonical themselves developed and baked into the desktop environment they developed specifically for Ubuntu.
    - AsyncAwait 7y ago
      I know, my point is that the most complex pieces of software within Ubuntu are not primarily developed by Canonical and thus it's possible to maintain complex Linux software without having ads and tracking. The fact that Canonical had developed spyware has nothing to do with the Linux kernel, glibc, bash, GNOME, systemd, PulseAudio, all of which prove that you don't need ads and tracking to maintain Linux software.
bradford 7y ago
[disclosure, MS employee] With the absence of telemetry, how do you know Linux is doing just fine? (specifically in the desktop world, not server world). Microsoft has an interest in knowing how well Windows is doing, and Windows has lived in a world both with and without telemetry. It was way, way harder to gauge success prior to telemetry, and it was also much more frustrating for the user to communicate their problems. I don't think Windows could have stayed in the pre-telemetry engineering world and maintained its position as a competitive desktop OS. I ask this mostly out of ignorance, I've got experience using Linux, but I really don't know what the dev-loop is like for active engineers.
- user192837 7y ago
  Windows became the world's top desktop OS without telemetry. Please stop this "we harvest your data to make our product better for you" excuse because it is offensive for us customers. Don't put it on us users. We did not ask for that. Just say that it's because everyone is doing, or to better profit or whatever unethical reasons you have.
- chappi42 7y ago
  > I don't think Windows could have stayed in the pre-telemetry engineering world You (Microsoft) shouldn't enforce people to send telemetry. Ask kindly and I suppose you'd get a better response. (VSC is a good example how it could/should be done)
- kuzehanka 7y ago
  What does telemetry have to do with the windows 10 start menu becoming a container for ads and not trivially removable partnered apps? There's nothing wrong with transparent, privacy-respecting, and configurable telemetry, but what windows 10 does is none of those. Trying to describe it as something that's good for the users comes off a bit disingenuous.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  > With the absence of telemetry, how do you know Linux is doing just fine? I look at Linux-focused communities on Reddit, Hacker News, etc (there’s always a good rant about Linux’s shortcomings). But that would, you know, mean you actually need to pay competent people that can understand the discourse and engage with the community, something you guys clearly don’t give a shit about (have you ever seen the Microsoft Support forums? It’s a disaster).
lostmsu 7y ago
> Linux seems to be doing just fine keeping software maintained without ads or harvesting data. Ugh. I am quite proficient with tech stuff, but last month trying Ubuntu 18.04 LTS on my desktop left me pretty disappointed. A hard no-no for anyone non-technical: the graphical login did not work until I manually switched to the text terminal and installed the latest NVidia driver (Titan V). And even now one of my screens does not wake up until I toggle it on/off. And no freeform per-screen DPI.
- 1024core 7y ago
  > until I manually switched to the text terminal and installed the latest NVidia driver As an nVidia card owner, I feel your pain. It's a case of both sides (nVidia and Linux) digging their heels and refusing to cooperate.
- cosmodisk 7y ago
  100% agree. Linux is great for developers or server admins but when it comes to an average Joe from the office,it is 20 years behind windows. It may look similar,it may feel a little similar but it is not.Most of the apps are complete shit, it is difficult to do things unless you an admin or technical user and etc. My job is split in half- one side is technical and I'd be happy with Linux, the other is a business user and this side will never switch to Linux,or not until all the MS products are ported to Linux.
chappi42 7y ago
> This mindset is toxic and needs to die A bit a more friendly reply would be appreciated.. What is toxic exactly? Linux (the Ubuntu desktop which I use) might do fine, but it needs to be financed also, developers need a salary. (Some) people donate, there seem to be 'some arrangements with e.g. Amazon' and - I suppose - the main funds currently come from Canonical using server edition income.
quantummkv 7y ago
The difference here is that most Linux users are capable of filing detailed bug reports and work on solving them. And many do so. By contrast most Windows users consider bugs to be something that requires an anti-bug spray.

tabtab 7y ago

Re: Windows (likely) always could offer better privacy for a fee. This could fuel class complaints that the poor will be snooped on more than the rich.

avtar 7y ago

> Windows (likely) always could offer better privacy for a fee. You can buy a Windows computer incl. IMO what I paid for my Windows Pro license is already that fee and then some.

cjarrett 7y ago
Additionally, this was the biggest selling point of Windows Phone. It died, and so did the Security/privacy mindset.
- bradford 7y ago
  If I'm interpreting you correctly, you're making two points, and neither of them are entirely correct: 1) Microsoft had telemetry in Windows Phone. 2) The security/privacy mindset hasn't died alongside Windows Phone. I think it's actually gotten stronger, GDPR has been the biggest forcing function. [disclosure: MS employee, but my employer wants me to state that this is my opinion, not that of Microsoft]
  - cjarrett 7y ago
    certainly in Azure; I've also seen very big efforts towards privacy as the direct result of GDPR. Windows, I'm much less confident.
chappi42 7y ago
I also paid for the Windows Pro license, but I meant the continued maintenance and free (bi)yearly updates. IIRC the license was around 50 € this cannot cover the full cost for the (let's say) 5+ years computer lifetime support.