6 ms·

"Often it was lonely, isolating, I felt out of the loop on some decisions, I didn't get some in-jokes and nicknames, I missed the non-holiday parties and happy

"Often it was lonely, isolating, I felt out of the loop on some decisions, I didn't get some in-jokes and nicknames, I missed the non-holiday parties and happy hours, etc." I am in this boat now. . . and find it really tough. Many others I know feel the same way but it is rarely talked about. How do you get over the social isolation of being remote?

ghaff 7y ago
There are really two different things in that quote. Being out of the loop on decisions is a combination of a company with a mix of remotes and company locations who would benefit from better documentation/communications practices. In practice, it's also something remote workers often just need to be more proactive about. The latter is really about separating work as social activity from work as work. You arguably lose something in the process but, if you're remote in a different location, you're not going to be at work happy hours, other gatherings, or software league. What you can do is join other local groups of your choosing.
incanus77 7y ago
There are two parts to this: work and your local community. For work, you're not going to do it alone. Someone on the HR side (or just general management, if the company is still quite small) is going to have to be a willing sounding board for remote employee concerns. On the social side, this might be supporting a policy (as Mapbox did, maybe still does) of flying remotes to the holiday and other big parties, as well as, if able, just having them in every month or two to work alongside the non-remotes and make those connections. When I first started, I'd fly from Portland to DC for a week every 6-8 weeks. It helped that I lived in DC prior for five years (before Mapbox), so it felt like a natural connection. On the technical and process side, we had a policy of things not existing (or not existing properly) unless they were in written form. This included decisions, context, back-and-forth reasoning, announcements, etc. We used GitHub for non-code "tickets" this way, almost like an internal blog and topic-focused discussion forum. This broke down in later years, but even to the scale of dozens of people was a great way to make sure that being 3,000 miles away and three hours "behind" wasn't as isolating. For the local community part, go to meetups. Organize a weekly/biweekly social gathering with likeminded friends or peers. Work in coffee shops or other places out of the house. I found that I went stir crazy when I first started remote, because I wouldn't leave the house and needed some human contact. Placing all of that expectation on your employer and not on yourself is unreasonable. It takes effort.
- rolleiflex 7y ago
  > On the technical and process side, we had a policy of things not existing (or not existing properly) unless they were in written form. This included decisions, context, back-and-forth reasoning, announcements, etc. We used GitHub for non-code "tickets" this way, almost like an internal blog and topic-focused discussion forum. We are working on making this process more scalable at Aether’s Pro version, it is especially useful for remote companies as you mentioned. It helps that we are a remote company as well, eating your own dog food is the fastest way to improve. If you’d like to get on the pilot, hit me up and I’ll add you in.
georgehotelling 7y ago
I can't speak for the parent commenter, but for the loneliness aspect I found a coworking space that is focused on community. It's a bunch of remotes and freelancers, so you see the same folks every day. It's kind of a "third place," although I guess that it's a second place since we all work here.
Cofike 7y ago
I think it really depends on the person. I had the same feelings of being isolated and not really getting to know everyone. I ended up getting an office job which is great. I love seeing people and having a separation of work and home. I know others who now do remote and absolutely love it. From what I understand though they are in my same situation but it just doesn’t bother them. It all depends on your personality and what you are looking for. Perhaps find a local coop workspace where you can go meet other engineers in your situation but then is that even remote anymore?
- aogl 7y ago
  I agree. It's not really remote if you have replaced the office with some other office that others expect you to be in all the time. The main reason I still don't work remote is because all the remote roles seem to pay so much less than my non-remote role(s). Is that common? Anyone else find that?
  - sethhochberg 7y ago
    I've seen 3 general schools of thought on remote pay: - its a global talent pool, so in raw dollars everyone should be on a level playing field (ie, compete for SF Bay wages no matter where you are in the world since that is generally the top wage market) - market rate for your current location (ie, whenever you choose to reside, you get paid an amount that provides a comfortable standard of living there, somewhat influenced by what local wages for your role would be - we won't round down if you're in a place where dev salaries are unusually low relative to other industries, but we will round up a bit to be competitive if you're in a market where they're high) - "remote is a perk" so take less pay in exchange for the freedom Personally, I currently work at a shop who is doing the second version and everyone seems happy enough with it. I'd never work somewhere who was trying to pitch remoteness as part of the comp package, and I think there are only a handful of companies out there who peg their wages to the most expensive markets in the world (I generally see this kind of position pushed by self-branded "expats" who want to metaphorically live like kings in cheap areas). Unfortunately there are a lot of companies who have decided they're going to go remote as a cost-savings measure, and that cost-savings mentality permeates everything about the business - including trying to sell being remote as a perk with value and lower wages to go with it.
patrickdavey 7y ago
I have been working remotely for the last 3 years. I'm a pretty social creature and after doing it for about 2 weeks I was already feeling pretty lonely!... For me, joining a co working space was excellent, can't recommend highly enough
embwbam 7y ago
I’ve worked remotely for most of the last 10 years. Don’t buy into the idea that work is your community or social life. That isolation can drive you to go places where people hang out after work (I met most of my friends at the climbing gym), get involved in clubs, etc. work sociality is a weak proxy for real community anyway. Also, I always work from coffee shops, because I like having humans around.
- hunter23 7y ago
  The truth is that almost half of our non-sleeping lives are spent in the workplace. We are inherently social animals (if not the most social animal on the planet). You've pointed out that there are lots of avenues for socializing outside of work, but I think it may be important for humans to socialize in the workplace too since we spend so much time there. It seems like we are wired to want to gather around the water-cooler and chat. As you mention, there's something quite natural about "wanting humans around". One way to achieve this need to socialize is to work out of a co-working space or coffee shop.
  - ticmasta 7y ago
    one practical approach I actually learned from Stripe is to prioritize remote. This can be pretty superficial, like remote always goes first in our daily stand-up, to more material - they don't always get it, but I always consider them first for project assignment, team representation at inter-departmental meetings, etc. Maybe this "affirmative action" could be viewed as unfair, but it's way too easy to ignore and marginalize remote teammates if you don't continually fight the bias.
criveros 7y ago
Stay at hostels, go to coworking spaces.
matchagaucho 7y ago
When building remote teams, we've tried to hire within common geographic areas, so the regional team can meet once per week at a Starbucks or co-working space of their choosing. The commute may be up to a 1 hour for some members, but it addresses the isolation challenge. We also try to bring the entire company together in-person once per year an at annual tech conference.
- Draiken 7y ago
  So, not really remote. More like a "work from home" style. A good remote culture allows someone in any timezone to be part of it or it loses the greatest advantage of remote working. If working together is the only social activity the person has, he's not cut out for remote work.
  - matchagaucho 7y ago
    Work from home, but primarily accountable to teams in other timezones. The regional teams coordinate their own in-person activities. Culturally, the concept of remote work is not well understood in countries like the Philippines and India. The occasional social "meeting" is more to convince their family members they have a "real job" with physical place of business.
    - stallmanite 7y ago
      I would think skeptical families would be convinced by the (hopefully) fat checks in the mail.
Klathmon 7y ago
For me personally, be proactive and step up the communication. You wouldn't hesitate to walk over to a co-workers desk and shoot the shit or ask a question about something, so you can't hesitate to call them either. It feels weird and intruding to me still after years of doing it, but it works. I don't feel left out, I don't feel isolated, and while I often feel like an annoyance, everyone tells me that isn't the case. Also, make sure the communication systems work well. It's invaluable to me to be able to make a video call and just have it work, to turn that one on one call into a group call, to share my screen and notes, to know that everyone on the team has a headset and knows how to use it. Without that, it just makes the communication that much harder, which amplifies those feelings of isolation and being an "outsider".
mooreds 7y ago
I attend a lot more meetups and coffee meetings, myself.
codyb 7y ago
At LightStep where I work we have company wide coffee chats which are fortnightly 30 minute randomly assigned groups of two or three with no agenda, a weekly “virtual water cooler” which is 30 minutes, and my team has a randomly assigned weekly one on one chat as well. They’re super pleasant and a great way to break up the day and they really help me get to know the people I work with on a personal level. I would really recommend setting something like that up with your teammates and coworkers or at least being an advocate for such a thing!
megy 7y ago
There are advantages and disadvantaged to being remote. One way of getting over isolation is to work in a share office. But even getting out to the library, or a cafe can be good. I used to work in different places, Museums with wifi, art centers, Uni's, almost anywhere.

ghaff 7y ago

There are really two different things in that quote. Being out of the loop on decisions is a combination of a company with a mix of remotes and company locations who would benefit from better documentation/communications practices. In practice, it's also something remote workers often just need to be more proactive about. The latter is really about separating work as social activity from work as work. You arguably lose something in the process but, if you're remote in a different location, you're not going to be at work happy hours, other gatherings, or software league. What you can do is join other local groups of your choosing.

incanus77 7y ago

There are two parts to this: work and your local community. For work, you're not going to do it alone. Someone on the HR side (or just general management, if the company is still quite small) is going to have to be a willing sounding board for remote employee concerns. On the social side, this might be supporting a policy (as Mapbox did, maybe still does) of flying remotes to the holiday and other big parties, as well as, if able, just having them in every month or two to work alongside the non-remotes and make those connections. When I first started, I'd fly from Portland to DC for a week every 6-8 weeks. It helped that I lived in DC prior for five years (before Mapbox), so it felt like a natural connection. On the technical and process side, we had a policy of things not existing (or not existing properly) unless they were in written form. This included decisions, context, back-and-forth reasoning, announcements, etc. We used GitHub for non-code "tickets" this way, almost like an internal blog and topic-focused discussion forum. This broke down in later years, but even to the scale of dozens of people was a great way to make sure that being 3,000 miles away and three hours "behind" wasn't as isolating. For the local community part, go to meetups. Organize a weekly/biweekly social gathering with likeminded friends or peers. Work in coffee shops or other places out of the house. I found that I went stir crazy when I first started remote, because I wouldn't leave the house and needed some human contact. Placing all of that expectation on your employer and not on yourself is unreasonable. It takes effort.

rolleiflex 7y ago
> On the technical and process side, we had a policy of things not existing (or not existing properly) unless they were in written form. This included decisions, context, back-and-forth reasoning, announcements, etc. We used GitHub for non-code "tickets" this way, almost like an internal blog and topic-focused discussion forum. We are working on making this process more scalable at Aether’s Pro version, it is especially useful for remote companies as you mentioned. It helps that we are a remote company as well, eating your own dog food is the fastest way to improve. If you’d like to get on the pilot, hit me up and I’ll add you in.

georgehotelling 7y ago

I can't speak for the parent commenter, but for the loneliness aspect I found a coworking space that is focused on community. It's a bunch of remotes and freelancers, so you see the same folks every day. It's kind of a "third place," although I guess that it's a second place since we all work here.

Cofike 7y ago

I think it really depends on the person. I had the same feelings of being isolated and not really getting to know everyone. I ended up getting an office job which is great. I love seeing people and having a separation of work and home. I know others who now do remote and absolutely love it. From what I understand though they are in my same situation but it just doesn’t bother them. It all depends on your personality and what you are looking for. Perhaps find a local coop workspace where you can go meet other engineers in your situation but then is that even remote anymore?

aogl 7y ago
I agree. It's not really remote if you have replaced the office with some other office that others expect you to be in all the time. The main reason I still don't work remote is because all the remote roles seem to pay so much less than my non-remote role(s). Is that common? Anyone else find that?
- sethhochberg 7y ago
  I've seen 3 general schools of thought on remote pay: - its a global talent pool, so in raw dollars everyone should be on a level playing field (ie, compete for SF Bay wages no matter where you are in the world since that is generally the top wage market) - market rate for your current location (ie, whenever you choose to reside, you get paid an amount that provides a comfortable standard of living there, somewhat influenced by what local wages for your role would be - we won't round down if you're in a place where dev salaries are unusually low relative to other industries, but we will round up a bit to be competitive if you're in a market where they're high) - "remote is a perk" so take less pay in exchange for the freedom Personally, I currently work at a shop who is doing the second version and everyone seems happy enough with it. I'd never work somewhere who was trying to pitch remoteness as part of the comp package, and I think there are only a handful of companies out there who peg their wages to the most expensive markets in the world (I generally see this kind of position pushed by self-branded "expats" who want to metaphorically live like kings in cheap areas). Unfortunately there are a lot of companies who have decided they're going to go remote as a cost-savings measure, and that cost-savings mentality permeates everything about the business - including trying to sell being remote as a perk with value and lower wages to go with it.

patrickdavey 7y ago

I have been working remotely for the last 3 years. I'm a pretty social creature and after doing it for about 2 weeks I was already feeling pretty lonely!... For me, joining a co working space was excellent, can't recommend highly enough

embwbam 7y ago

I’ve worked remotely for most of the last 10 years. Don’t buy into the idea that work is your community or social life. That isolation can drive you to go places where people hang out after work (I met most of my friends at the climbing gym), get involved in clubs, etc. work sociality is a weak proxy for real community anyway. Also, I always work from coffee shops, because I like having humans around.

hunter23 7y ago
The truth is that almost half of our non-sleeping lives are spent in the workplace. We are inherently social animals (if not the most social animal on the planet). You've pointed out that there are lots of avenues for socializing outside of work, but I think it may be important for humans to socialize in the workplace too since we spend so much time there. It seems like we are wired to want to gather around the water-cooler and chat. As you mention, there's something quite natural about "wanting humans around". One way to achieve this need to socialize is to work out of a co-working space or coffee shop.
- ticmasta 7y ago
  one practical approach I actually learned from Stripe is to prioritize remote. This can be pretty superficial, like remote always goes first in our daily stand-up, to more material - they don't always get it, but I always consider them first for project assignment, team representation at inter-departmental meetings, etc. Maybe this "affirmative action" could be viewed as unfair, but it's way too easy to ignore and marginalize remote teammates if you don't continually fight the bias.

criveros 7y ago

Stay at hostels, go to coworking spaces.

matchagaucho 7y ago

When building remote teams, we've tried to hire within common geographic areas, so the regional team can meet once per week at a Starbucks or co-working space of their choosing. The commute may be up to a 1 hour for some members, but it addresses the isolation challenge. We also try to bring the entire company together in-person once per year an at annual tech conference.

Draiken 7y ago
So, not really remote. More like a "work from home" style. A good remote culture allows someone in any timezone to be part of it or it loses the greatest advantage of remote working. If working together is the only social activity the person has, he's not cut out for remote work.
- matchagaucho 7y ago
  Work from home, but primarily accountable to teams in other timezones. The regional teams coordinate their own in-person activities. Culturally, the concept of remote work is not well understood in countries like the Philippines and India. The occasional social "meeting" is more to convince their family members they have a "real job" with physical place of business.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    I would think skeptical families would be convinced by the (hopefully) fat checks in the mail.

Klathmon 7y ago

For me personally, be proactive and step up the communication. You wouldn't hesitate to walk over to a co-workers desk and shoot the shit or ask a question about something, so you can't hesitate to call them either. It feels weird and intruding to me still after years of doing it, but it works. I don't feel left out, I don't feel isolated, and while I often feel like an annoyance, everyone tells me that isn't the case. Also, make sure the communication systems work well. It's invaluable to me to be able to make a video call and just have it work, to turn that one on one call into a group call, to share my screen and notes, to know that everyone on the team has a headset and knows how to use it. Without that, it just makes the communication that much harder, which amplifies those feelings of isolation and being an "outsider".

mooreds 7y ago

I attend a lot more meetups and coffee meetings, myself.

codyb 7y ago

At LightStep where I work we have company wide coffee chats which are fortnightly 30 minute randomly assigned groups of two or three with no agenda, a weekly “virtual water cooler” which is 30 minutes, and my team has a randomly assigned weekly one on one chat as well. They’re super pleasant and a great way to break up the day and they really help me get to know the people I work with on a personal level. I would really recommend setting something like that up with your teammates and coworkers or at least being an advocate for such a thing!

megy 7y ago

There are advantages and disadvantaged to being remote. One way of getting over isolation is to work in a share office. But even getting out to the library, or a cafe can be good. I used to work in different places, Museums with wifi, art centers, Uni's, almost anywhere.