7 ms·

Tesla's manufacturing capabilities are child's play in the automotive industry. Nothing Tesla has done here is revolutionary. Their quality control is abysmal c

by golfer 7y ago

Tesla's manufacturing capabilities are child's play in the automotive industry. Nothing Tesla has done here is revolutionary. Their quality control is abysmal compared to other major OEMs. They make the Model 3 in a tent. There are regular garbage fires at their Fremont plant. https://boingboing.net/2018/08/24/fire-breaks-out-at-tesla-facto.html https://boingboing.net/2018/08/24/fire-breaks-out-at-tesla-f... And there was another one in February this year.

tomnipotent 7y ago
How are fires at a paint shop indicative of abysmal quality control?
- hef19898 7y ago
  It is a sign for abysmal factory operations. And the first time pass rate is really bad compared to other OEMs.
  - tomnipotent 7y ago
    > It is a sign for abysmal factory operations. Not really. It's just a sign that their paint shop needs some work. > And the first time pass rate is really bad compared to other OEMs. For a few weeks in June. Great work taking isolated incidents and generalizing across the board.
    - golfer 7y ago
      The fires aren't just in the paint shop. They are all around the factory property. Inside and outside. Garbage fires on the lot happen about once a year. Regardless, you are trying to say that paint shop fires mean they just need a new paint shop. What I'm saying is that their entire manufacturing operation is amateurish compared to the rest of the auto industry.
      - jsight 7y ago
        I mean, the BMW plant near here has fires about once a year two, if the last couple of years is a baseline. I'm not convinced that you are proving anything.
    - gamblor956 7y ago
      It wasn't just those few weeks in June. Their first time pass rate, on weekly, monthly, and quarterly basis is really bad compared to other OEMs. A large part of the reason they have a repair parts shortage is because spare parts that would go to existing customers are instead being used to repair newly-built cars before they leave the factory. Tesla's gotten better at managing their first-time pass rates, but they're still close to the bottom compared to their peers.
      - tomnipotent 7y ago
        > really bad compared to other OEM Compared to companies that have been in operation for decades, and in some cases a century? Sure, let's make sure to compare all start-ups to entrenched incumbents.
        golfer 7y ago
        Tesla is not a startup! It's been in business for 18 years.
        Zanni 7y ago
        Depends on your definition. I think they qualify as a startup because they're still in their hockey-stick growth phase.
        tomnipotent 7y ago
        In the context of the auto industry, it absolutely is. Peugeot - 1889 Daimler - 1890 Fiat - 1899 Renault - 1899 Buick - 1903 Ford - 1903 Rolls-Royce - 1904 General Motors - 1908 Alfa Romeo - 1910 Dodge - 1910 Chevrolet - 1911 Aston Martin - 1913 Maserati - 1914 Mitsubishi - 1917 Bentley - 1919 Citroen - 1919 Chrysler - 1925 Mercedes-Benz - 1926 (1883 if you include Benz & Cie.) Nissan - 1934 Jaguar - 1935 Toyota - 1937 Jeep - 1941 Ferrari - 1947 Honda - 1948 Land Rover - 1948 Lotus - 1952 Suzuki - 1956 Subaru - 1958 Mini - 1959 Mazda - 1960 Tesla - 2003
        7y ago
Aromasin 7y ago
Manufacturing capabilities =/= % of process automated. I'm not saying they're effective at production output, or quality control, or a number of other things. I'm just saying that as far as I can tell as an interested outsider looking in, their automation processes are impressive compared to their competitors.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Tesla admits that large portions of their cars--even the Model 3--are essentially built or assembled by hand. Meanwhile, Ford and Toyota have videos of almost an entire car being constructed by robots on their production factory lines (their are parts where humans assist the robots but otherwise most of the work is actually done by the robots). There'a a famous Ford video from a decade or two ago showing one of their (now-older/discontinued) model sedans from being built and finished--entirely by robots-from frame to final painting touchups. And if you don't believe the videos, you can tour their factories and actually see their factory lines in action, live.
- hef19898 7y ago
  Unfortunately it is not looks that count but results. And there Tesla is far behind. Which kind proves the incumbents right on the way they are manufacturing cars. And that is my whole point. You can have a killer product, if you are unable to produce and distribute it that doesn't mean shit. Ideas are a dime dozen, right? Execution is what matters is the start-up advice, right? And on that front Tesla is not looking good right now.
codeulike 7y ago
The 'tent' was an improvisation when they realised their automation plan wasn't going to work. It was 1 of 3 lines I think, a way to expand capacity quickly. You could scoff at the 'tent', or you could think about what it takes to come up with a rapidly implemented and physically massive plan B involving hundreds of people and huge amounts of hardware when there's a huge amount at stake. edit: Here's some pics of the tent, and description of the large scale scrambling it took https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-25/the-future-of-tesla-hinges-on-this-gigantic-tent https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-25/the-futur...
- hef19898 7y ago
  Or you could ask yourself what happened that you needed a tent in the first place. Again, incumbents or any of their final assembly contractors know exactly how to launch and scale assembly lines for new plants and car models. Why Tesla choose to deviate from all industry best practices in that case still puzzles me.
  - thaumaturgy 7y ago
    It's curious to read this sort of reaction on HN, because it maps pretty well to process differences between startups and big, established (some would say "fossilized") software development firms. "That startup has no idea what they're doing. Just last week they had to hire a bunch of new developers and they went all-remote and picked up a bunch of new management SaaS to do it. Look at IBM, they always know exactly how many developers they'll need for a project." Tesla's got some significant problems, sure, but most of their problems seem to be the sort that a rapidly growing startup would have (including the lightning-rod CEO).
    - hef19898 7y ago
      Software =|= Manufacturing, comparing the two looks like a fallacy to me. EDIT: That Tesla is still treated as a typical Silicon Valley start up and not an automotive OEM might be one of Elons greatest achievements.
  - 7y ago

by golfer 7y ago

tomnipotent 7y ago

How are fires at a paint shop indicative of abysmal quality control?

hef19898 7y ago
It is a sign for abysmal factory operations. And the first time pass rate is really bad compared to other OEMs.
- tomnipotent 7y ago
  > It is a sign for abysmal factory operations. Not really. It's just a sign that their paint shop needs some work. > And the first time pass rate is really bad compared to other OEMs. For a few weeks in June. Great work taking isolated incidents and generalizing across the board.
  - golfer 7y ago
    The fires aren't just in the paint shop. They are all around the factory property. Inside and outside. Garbage fires on the lot happen about once a year. Regardless, you are trying to say that paint shop fires mean they just need a new paint shop. What I'm saying is that their entire manufacturing operation is amateurish compared to the rest of the auto industry.
    - jsight 7y ago
      I mean, the BMW plant near here has fires about once a year two, if the last couple of years is a baseline. I'm not convinced that you are proving anything.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    It wasn't just those few weeks in June. Their first time pass rate, on weekly, monthly, and quarterly basis is really bad compared to other OEMs. A large part of the reason they have a repair parts shortage is because spare parts that would go to existing customers are instead being used to repair newly-built cars before they leave the factory. Tesla's gotten better at managing their first-time pass rates, but they're still close to the bottom compared to their peers.
    - tomnipotent 7y ago
      > really bad compared to other OEM Compared to companies that have been in operation for decades, and in some cases a century? Sure, let's make sure to compare all start-ups to entrenched incumbents.
      - golfer 7y ago
        Tesla is not a startup! It's been in business for 18 years.
        Zanni 7y ago
        Depends on your definition. I think they qualify as a startup because they're still in their hockey-stick growth phase.
        tomnipotent 7y ago
        In the context of the auto industry, it absolutely is. Peugeot - 1889 Daimler - 1890 Fiat - 1899 Renault - 1899 Buick - 1903 Ford - 1903 Rolls-Royce - 1904 General Motors - 1908 Alfa Romeo - 1910 Dodge - 1910 Chevrolet - 1911 Aston Martin - 1913 Maserati - 1914 Mitsubishi - 1917 Bentley - 1919 Citroen - 1919 Chrysler - 1925 Mercedes-Benz - 1926 (1883 if you include Benz & Cie.) Nissan - 1934 Jaguar - 1935 Toyota - 1937 Jeep - 1941 Ferrari - 1947 Honda - 1948 Land Rover - 1948 Lotus - 1952 Suzuki - 1956 Subaru - 1958 Mini - 1959 Mazda - 1960 Tesla - 2003
        7y ago

Aromasin 7y ago

Manufacturing capabilities =/= % of process automated. I'm not saying they're effective at production output, or quality control, or a number of other things. I'm just saying that as far as I can tell as an interested outsider looking in, their automation processes are impressive compared to their competitors.

gamblor956 7y ago
Tesla admits that large portions of their cars--even the Model 3--are essentially built or assembled by hand. Meanwhile, Ford and Toyota have videos of almost an entire car being constructed by robots on their production factory lines (their are parts where humans assist the robots but otherwise most of the work is actually done by the robots). There'a a famous Ford video from a decade or two ago showing one of their (now-older/discontinued) model sedans from being built and finished--entirely by robots-from frame to final painting touchups. And if you don't believe the videos, you can tour their factories and actually see their factory lines in action, live.
hef19898 7y ago
Unfortunately it is not looks that count but results. And there Tesla is far behind. Which kind proves the incumbents right on the way they are manufacturing cars. And that is my whole point. You can have a killer product, if you are unable to produce and distribute it that doesn't mean shit. Ideas are a dime dozen, right? Execution is what matters is the start-up advice, right? And on that front Tesla is not looking good right now.

codeulike 7y ago

The 'tent' was an improvisation when they realised their automation plan wasn't going to work. It was 1 of 3 lines I think, a way to expand capacity quickly. You could scoff at the 'tent', or you could think about what it takes to come up with a rapidly implemented and physically massive plan B involving hundreds of people and huge amounts of hardware when there's a huge amount at stake. edit: Here's some pics of the tent, and description of the large scale scrambling it took https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-25/the-future-of-tesla-hinges-on-this-gigantic-tent https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-25/the-futur...

hef19898 7y ago
Or you could ask yourself what happened that you needed a tent in the first place. Again, incumbents or any of their final assembly contractors know exactly how to launch and scale assembly lines for new plants and car models. Why Tesla choose to deviate from all industry best practices in that case still puzzles me.
- thaumaturgy 7y ago
  It's curious to read this sort of reaction on HN, because it maps pretty well to process differences between startups and big, established (some would say "fossilized") software development firms. "That startup has no idea what they're doing. Just last week they had to hire a bunch of new developers and they went all-remote and picked up a bunch of new management SaaS to do it. Look at IBM, they always know exactly how many developers they'll need for a project." Tesla's got some significant problems, sure, but most of their problems seem to be the sort that a rapidly growing startup would have (including the lightning-rod CEO).
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Software =|= Manufacturing, comparing the two looks like a fallacy to me. EDIT: That Tesla is still treated as a typical Silicon Valley start up and not an automotive OEM might be one of Elons greatest achievements.
- 7y ago