8 ms·

I've hired people with both some college and an actual degree. I honestly haven't seen a big difference in ability. In fact, the ones with only some college (es

I've hired people with both some college and an actual degree. I honestly haven't seen a big difference in ability. In fact, the ones with only some college (especially those with a family) seem to be more reliable and willing to do the occasional boring things that those with a degree tend try to avoid doing. That's probably my own experience and it involves a low sample size, but as a small business owner, Id argue that you can really benefit by dropping the degree barrier and looking for other indicators of maturity and reliability.

Wheaties466 7y ago
as someone that falls into the category described in this article I may be able to shed some light into my personal way of thinking. I've always been very grateful and always been willing to do any work I can or go out of my way when I can to get the job done. This stems from the fact that I am grateful for my boss for "taking a chance on me". I know hiring doesn't always work out and I do what I can to be the shining star of people they look for, in the future to hire. It was very rewarding when in fact my direct manager said to me in conversation " How do we find more people like you?" Probably the best compliment I could have received. Before anyone else chimes in, I am not underpaid. I work for a great company and am probably paid above market average.
fatnoah 7y ago
>Id argue that you can really benefit by dropping the degree barrier and looking for other indicators of maturity and reliability. I've hired dozens of Software Engineers and could only tell you the degrees and/or schools of a couple of them. I don't even look at that. Can you demonstrates proficiency in what I'm asking you to do? Do you seem intelligent and willing & able to learn? Do you fill a gap on the team? Those are the things I want to know.
- twodave 7y ago
  I think the barrier specifically for software engineering is probably a bit lower now than in the past. Information was tougher to get at 10-15 years ago than it is today, and many of the candidates who in past times would not have gotten the necessary structure from a university can now go to a few bootcamps and be pretty much on par with people who completed a 4-year degree. Software engineering is a trade skill, after all.
  - Denzel 7y ago
    What do you mean by software engineering is a trade skill?
    - pjc50 7y ago
      It's not something with a formal professional exam board that you have to pass, like law, medicine, chartered accountancy, or regular engineering. Nor is it a pure academic discipline. It's a commercial skill: a trade.
      - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
        ...and I really wish we had a strict professional exam to use the term "engineer".
        pjc50 7y ago
        To use the term, or to make software? The latter would basically be the end of startups and agility.
        eeZah7Ux 7y ago
        To sign mission-critical and potentially life-critical software and provide better safety guarantees. And have a professional body to protect employees from pressure to lower quality. Just like aeronautical and construction engineering, surgery, dentistry...
        throwaway55554 7y ago
        My degree is a BsCpE. Should I be allowed to call myself an engineer?
        potta_coffee 7y ago
        Results are what matters. Titles are meaningless.
durnygbur 7y ago
> In fact, the ones with only some college (especially those with a family) seem to be more reliable and willing to do the occasional boring things that those with a degree tend try to avoid doing. Some would call it „willing”, some „more desperate”.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  That’s a bit narrow-sighted IMHO. I wouldn’t have called Feynman desperate. http://longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine/ http://longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine... Some things just need doing, like buying pencils.
  - ulucs 7y ago
    I think you'd enjoy this article https://economics.mit.edu/files/12569 https://economics.mit.edu/files/12569
  - durnygbur 7y ago
    Not every drop out is Feynman, it’s not like I’m judgmental - just an observation on who is more likely to be swarmed with lesser tasks in a workplace environment, especially among colleagues with academic credentials.
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      Of course not. It's just an illustration. Being willing to take on tasks as menial as picking up some pencils for the team might be a symptom of desperation. It equally might be a symptom of a lack of egotistical arrogance [that one is above such tasks]. Also called into question is the definition of a lesser task. You see, in the Feynman scenario they could not have got much work done in a short time without more pencils—no matter who was fetching them.
geomark 7y ago
Somewhat different experience: I was a hiring manager at a large tech company where we needed mostly hardware engineers. Company was very big on credentials, so we always recruited from top unis. We had just a handful of "partial-degreed" engineers who had often worked their way up from electronic technician positions while attending college part time. Turns out we needed both types. The top credentialed engineers did lovely designs but never got any of their hardware to actually work. The "mechanics" always had to come in to fix things. Added: It really was quite like this Dilbert comic https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-01-21 https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-01-21
- jononor 7y ago
  Why exactly did you need those credentialed designers that churned out non-working "lovely" designs?
  - mring33621 7y ago
    Not OP, but sometimes 'lovely' designs also nearly work and all that is needed to bridge the final gap is knowledge earned through practical experience.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      This happens in construction too. Architect/engineer sign off on a design, the "no education" guy swinging the hammer has to make adjustments in the field to get it to actually work.
      - brewtide 7y ago
        "i'll draw it in later after you have built it".
      - geomark 7y ago
        I worked for my dad a couple summers when I was a teenager. He was a contractor doing wood frame construction in southern California. I never heard him swear so much as when the plans called for something that was next to impossible to build. Later on I did some framing work on my own. Ran into several cases where the designer completely ignored the dimensional instability of wood due to changes in humidity. Often that was really hard for the "no education" guys to fix.

Wheaties466 7y ago

as someone that falls into the category described in this article I may be able to shed some light into my personal way of thinking. I've always been very grateful and always been willing to do any work I can or go out of my way when I can to get the job done. This stems from the fact that I am grateful for my boss for "taking a chance on me". I know hiring doesn't always work out and I do what I can to be the shining star of people they look for, in the future to hire. It was very rewarding when in fact my direct manager said to me in conversation " How do we find more people like you?" Probably the best compliment I could have received. Before anyone else chimes in, I am not underpaid. I work for a great company and am probably paid above market average.

fatnoah 7y ago

>Id argue that you can really benefit by dropping the degree barrier and looking for other indicators of maturity and reliability. I've hired dozens of Software Engineers and could only tell you the degrees and/or schools of a couple of them. I don't even look at that. Can you demonstrates proficiency in what I'm asking you to do? Do you seem intelligent and willing & able to learn? Do you fill a gap on the team? Those are the things I want to know.

twodave 7y ago
I think the barrier specifically for software engineering is probably a bit lower now than in the past. Information was tougher to get at 10-15 years ago than it is today, and many of the candidates who in past times would not have gotten the necessary structure from a university can now go to a few bootcamps and be pretty much on par with people who completed a 4-year degree. Software engineering is a trade skill, after all.
- Denzel 7y ago
  What do you mean by software engineering is a trade skill?
  - pjc50 7y ago
    It's not something with a formal professional exam board that you have to pass, like law, medicine, chartered accountancy, or regular engineering. Nor is it a pure academic discipline. It's a commercial skill: a trade.
    - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
      ...and I really wish we had a strict professional exam to use the term "engineer".
      - pjc50 7y ago
        To use the term, or to make software? The latter would basically be the end of startups and agility.
        eeZah7Ux 7y ago
        To sign mission-critical and potentially life-critical software and provide better safety guarantees. And have a professional body to protect employees from pressure to lower quality. Just like aeronautical and construction engineering, surgery, dentistry...
      - throwaway55554 7y ago
        My degree is a BsCpE. Should I be allowed to call myself an engineer?
        potta_coffee 7y ago
        Results are what matters. Titles are meaningless.

durnygbur 7y ago

> In fact, the ones with only some college (especially those with a family) seem to be more reliable and willing to do the occasional boring things that those with a degree tend try to avoid doing. Some would call it „willing”, some „more desperate”.

52-6F-62 7y ago
That’s a bit narrow-sighted IMHO. I wouldn’t have called Feynman desperate. http://longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine/ http://longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine... Some things just need doing, like buying pencils.
- ulucs 7y ago
  I think you'd enjoy this article https://economics.mit.edu/files/12569 https://economics.mit.edu/files/12569
- durnygbur 7y ago
  Not every drop out is Feynman, it’s not like I’m judgmental - just an observation on who is more likely to be swarmed with lesser tasks in a workplace environment, especially among colleagues with academic credentials.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    Of course not. It's just an illustration. Being willing to take on tasks as menial as picking up some pencils for the team might be a symptom of desperation. It equally might be a symptom of a lack of egotistical arrogance [that one is above such tasks]. Also called into question is the definition of a lesser task. You see, in the Feynman scenario they could not have got much work done in a short time without more pencils—no matter who was fetching them.

geomark 7y ago

Somewhat different experience: I was a hiring manager at a large tech company where we needed mostly hardware engineers. Company was very big on credentials, so we always recruited from top unis. We had just a handful of "partial-degreed" engineers who had often worked their way up from electronic technician positions while attending college part time. Turns out we needed both types. The top credentialed engineers did lovely designs but never got any of their hardware to actually work. The "mechanics" always had to come in to fix things. Added: It really was quite like this Dilbert comic https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-01-21 https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-01-21

jononor 7y ago
Why exactly did you need those credentialed designers that churned out non-working "lovely" designs?
- mring33621 7y ago
  Not OP, but sometimes 'lovely' designs also nearly work and all that is needed to bridge the final gap is knowledge earned through practical experience.
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    This happens in construction too. Architect/engineer sign off on a design, the "no education" guy swinging the hammer has to make adjustments in the field to get it to actually work.
    - brewtide 7y ago
      "i'll draw it in later after you have built it".
    - geomark 7y ago
      I worked for my dad a couple summers when I was a teenager. He was a contractor doing wood frame construction in southern California. I never heard him swear so much as when the plans called for something that was next to impossible to build. Later on I did some framing work on my own. Ran into several cases where the designer completely ignored the dimensional instability of wood due to changes in humidity. Often that was really hard for the "no education" guys to fix.