7 ms·

You can tax the shit out of people if you provide something in return. Millionaires don't flee the Netherlands or Sweden.

yeahitslikethat 7y ago
Uh. That's not what the Scandinavians I know say.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  The 2–3 Scandinavian millionaires I know say things like “I’m glad the government paid for my schooling up through college and I didn’t start my career buried in debt.” Or “Wow I’m glad we have a working heathcare system. The USA sounds like a dystopian nightmare.” Also “I wish our winter had a bit more sunshine.”
  - sandwich9 7y ago
    The argument is the US system is more extreme. In the US those 2-3 Scandinavian millionaires would be worth 4 times what they are worth there. But then again some of your friends living middle class there would be poor and housing insecure.
    - roenxi 7y ago
      That isn't the argument, the argument is that if you adjusted for the non-linear effects of growing the population then the US has a better or equal system. The US has a lot of warts, so that may not be true at the end of the day - but it is a pretty reasonable argument. The population of Scandanavia is less than 10% of the population of the US and is part of a larger European region. Comparing the Scandinavian system to the US system is like running US Federal policy by assuming all 300 million Americans live and work in the nice half of California rather than the geographically and economically diverse reality. A high tech industry hub can only employ so many people. Hence that non-linearity of effects. And the politics of scaling up population aren't at all smooth (small is better for politics). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - HighValuation 7y ago
    You know 2-3 millionaires, that’s cute. Half the senior engineers in my unremarkable US-based startup are millionaires.
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      Yes, as an American I haven’t had extended conversations about tax rates or comparative government policy with all that many wealthy Scandinavians. I am just offering a small anecdote which contradicts the previous small anecdote. I have also discussed these topics with plenty of American millionaires. Most of those are also disgusted at the US healthcare system and skyrocketing college tuition. YMMV. (How do your coworkers feel about the cost of putting their kids through college or covering aging parents’ medical bills?)
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - HighValuation 7y ago
        So happens that many (more than 2-3) of the millionare engineers I mentioned never went to college. Why is it the parents’ responsibility to put their kids through college? If your parents paid for your college, you do not have the right to refer to yourself as self made, millionaire or otherwise. My parents lived in Canada, the one that is no longer here died from cancer after waiting 5 months for an operating room to open up. They were only stage 2 when they received the diagnosis. I would have broken the bank to get them care in the states if I was working then. Funny how things are so free to the point that they become worthless when you actually need them.
    - orbifold 7y ago
      They will need those millions to cover for college tuition, medical bills and so on, presumably.
  - zeropnc 7y ago
    Lol this is such bullshit. I spent 4 years in Sweden, people there complain even more than Americans.
Proven 7y ago
They are fleeing New York and other left-leaning states. In the EU many rich have escaped to Swiss. The EU centralization and harmonization of taxes now make it harder to move next door. That doesn’t mean people wouldn’t move if it wasn’t as inconvenient. Aside from that your comment is completely off the mark. By definition “tax for services” isn’t a voluntary business transaction in which the taxpayer chooses to pay because they value the services they get in return more than the money that they give to acquire them. So please stop pretending that you understand anyone’s preferences.
s17n 7y ago
Yeah glancing at the data it looked like taxes weren't a big factor - wealthy people are far more concerned with social and political stability and overall functioning societies.
- candiodari 7y ago
  The problem in the Netherlands is that you'll get attacked by government workers (kids' school, "buurt teams" (social workers), local taxes, garbage collection, ...) if they know (or it's somehow too obvious) that you have money. And I'm not talking $100 million. I'm talking $200k or so. Total assets ignoring debt maybe $2M. Nothing spectacular. Especially if you do this in the "wrong neighborhood". But of course, if there's some reason you have money, you might have picked your residence based on where your company has to be, to be close to your workshop and able to easily drive to various customers, and not on being in the neighborhood with the "correct" social status. (I live in an immigrant neighborhood because of it's location. Richer neighborhoods are generally in the center of cities and not very drive-able but my work requires a car. Also I vastly prefer a big house over rich neighbours)
  - fwip 7y ago
    Attacked?
quickthrower2 7y ago
Billionaires do though :-)
jotm 7y ago
I know a Turkish millionaire (German citizen, but he'll never say that), he's living it up in Germany. Then again, his wealth is only because his family bought up a bunch of land and housing in central and southern Turkey. So while they sat on it, living in Germany, other Turks worked hard to develop the cities and business, increasing property value tenfold. A good investment, but one can see why people want the rich taxed more.
- baybal2 7y ago
  I know a Pakistani millionaire who moved to Norway, and an untold amount of Chinese millionaires who moved to Canada taking their businesses along with them. It is a two way street.
jankotek 7y ago
I do not know about Sweden, but from Norway they do. My friend moved to Prague. He said it is difficult to raise children in Norway if you are a christian. He could not afford to buy a car. There is long waiting list for a house. And Norway is taxing expats even after they leave country (for three years).
- rebuilder 7y ago
  It doesn't sound like your friend is a millionaire moving to escape taxes.
  - jankotek 7y ago
    It is not tax heaven, but taxation in czechia is significantly lower.
- Angostura 7y ago
  >He said it is difficult to raise children in Norway if you are a christian. What?
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Exactly?! - this doesn't jive with my (prejudiced) view of Norway as the "Bible Belt" of Scandinavia.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      Isn’t that like saying the most depraved of devout Mormons? It’s technically a defined concept with a sensible meaning but the connotations are misleading.
  - jankotek 7y ago
    Barnevernet
    - pjc50 7y ago
zeropnc 7y ago
Um, about half of Sweden’s ten richest people left the country. I don’t get America’s obsession with Scandanavia. Have any of you actually lived there? It’s hilariously overrated.
wsc981 7y ago
I think for the common man it's much harder to avoid taxation than for rich people. I am sure many wealthy Dutch people keep money in offshore companies and the like - there might not be much need for emigration. In the end I would guess wealthy people in The Netherlands pay very little tax. I am just a "normal" freelance software developer myself, but partly due to crazy taxation I did emigrate from The Netherlands (though other factors where part of this decision as well). I think I must have paid close to, or maybe even over 50% tax in The Netherlands, all things considered (including city tax, VAT on products, utilities, etc...) and I also felt I got very little in return (I am sure some people feel tax in The Netherlands is fair, but to each his own).
expertentipp 7y ago
Are you kidding? Netherlands is the EU’s most famous tax evasion destination with overseas tax havens included, Sweden might have low income inequalities but has massive wealth inequalities - see their aristocratic and oligarch families, or the world famous furniture „charity” (coincidentally, its byzantine ownership scheme anchors in Netherlands).
- mettamage 7y ago
  I wanted to say that you're wrong, but the more I think about The Netherlands, the truth seems to be a bit in your favor. I mean, I know that millionaires in The Netherlands pay taxes, but in most cases that's property/capital tax, which is about 1% (simplifying a lot here). However, that's by far not the full story. People with 1 million are also millionaires and it depends to what extent they evade tax. Let me outline some example groups and how much tax I think they pay. I'm a Dutchie myself, so I feel my guestimates are okay. Millionaire employees: You do have HFT companies where people make between 100,000 euro's to 250,000 euro's but pay 50% in employee tax on average. Also, top positions here are taxed around the same rate. International millionaire employees: The thing is: not all top managers who are also millionaires are domestic. There are quite some Dutchies who are top managers but have been an expat, which means they were paying the employee tax of another country, which is most likely cheaper. These Dutchies sometimes return to The Netherlands after decades of working abroad. I highly doubt though that tax evasion was their biggest motivator, but paying 20% less (number out of thin air, but NL is 50% so the world is 30%) employee tax year over year definitely adds up as these type of people also invest their money. Entrepreneurs and freelancers: A business in The Netherlands that makes 250,000 euro's in profit per year, probably has some tax tricks but my guestimate is that they still pay between 15 to 30% taxes. It really depends on how focused they are on it and how structured they are. I met this one Dutch person who's a freelancer, he makes about a 120,000 euro's per year. I'm pretty sure he pays normal income tax (and gets some deductions because he's a freelancer). Other freelancers that I know are much more focused on it and tend to be on the 15%, maybe even 10% side. Criminals: Criminals need to launder money, they pay their taxes, in a more karmic than bureaucratic way. This is also because most criminals that are millionaires don't seem super duper smart (source: the Dutch news regarding assinations of 15 years ago), but they are quite clever since non-clever criminals get caught, not shot. Inherited wealth: See my first statement, these people are most likely in real estate. There's even an episode about it by Zondag met Lubach [1]. These people evade tax. That's all I know about it. My point is: it's a bit more nuanced than every millionaire not paying tax. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3fywTiEJgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3fywTiEJgM -- Dutch spoken but has English subtitles (non-auto translated)

yeahitslikethat 7y ago

Uh. That's not what the Scandinavians I know say.

jacobolus 7y ago
The 2–3 Scandinavian millionaires I know say things like “I’m glad the government paid for my schooling up through college and I didn’t start my career buried in debt.” Or “Wow I’m glad we have a working heathcare system. The USA sounds like a dystopian nightmare.” Also “I wish our winter had a bit more sunshine.”
- sandwich9 7y ago
  The argument is the US system is more extreme. In the US those 2-3 Scandinavian millionaires would be worth 4 times what they are worth there. But then again some of your friends living middle class there would be poor and housing insecure.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    That isn't the argument, the argument is that if you adjusted for the non-linear effects of growing the population then the US has a better or equal system. The US has a lot of warts, so that may not be true at the end of the day - but it is a pretty reasonable argument. The population of Scandanavia is less than 10% of the population of the US and is part of a larger European region. Comparing the Scandinavian system to the US system is like running US Federal policy by assuming all 300 million Americans live and work in the nice half of California rather than the geographically and economically diverse reality. A high tech industry hub can only employ so many people. Hence that non-linearity of effects. And the politics of scaling up population aren't at all smooth (small is better for politics). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- HighValuation 7y ago
  You know 2-3 millionaires, that’s cute. Half the senior engineers in my unremarkable US-based startup are millionaires.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    Yes, as an American I haven’t had extended conversations about tax rates or comparative government policy with all that many wealthy Scandinavians. I am just offering a small anecdote which contradicts the previous small anecdote. I have also discussed these topics with plenty of American millionaires. Most of those are also disgusted at the US healthcare system and skyrocketing college tuition. YMMV. (How do your coworkers feel about the cost of putting their kids through college or covering aging parents’ medical bills?)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - HighValuation 7y ago
      So happens that many (more than 2-3) of the millionare engineers I mentioned never went to college. Why is it the parents’ responsibility to put their kids through college? If your parents paid for your college, you do not have the right to refer to yourself as self made, millionaire or otherwise. My parents lived in Canada, the one that is no longer here died from cancer after waiting 5 months for an operating room to open up. They were only stage 2 when they received the diagnosis. I would have broken the bank to get them care in the states if I was working then. Funny how things are so free to the point that they become worthless when you actually need them.
  - orbifold 7y ago
    They will need those millions to cover for college tuition, medical bills and so on, presumably.
- zeropnc 7y ago
  Lol this is such bullshit. I spent 4 years in Sweden, people there complain even more than Americans.

Proven 7y ago

They are fleeing New York and other left-leaning states. In the EU many rich have escaped to Swiss. The EU centralization and harmonization of taxes now make it harder to move next door. That doesn’t mean people wouldn’t move if it wasn’t as inconvenient. Aside from that your comment is completely off the mark. By definition “tax for services” isn’t a voluntary business transaction in which the taxpayer chooses to pay because they value the services they get in return more than the money that they give to acquire them. So please stop pretending that you understand anyone’s preferences.

s17n 7y ago

Yeah glancing at the data it looked like taxes weren't a big factor - wealthy people are far more concerned with social and political stability and overall functioning societies.

candiodari 7y ago
The problem in the Netherlands is that you'll get attacked by government workers (kids' school, "buurt teams" (social workers), local taxes, garbage collection, ...) if they know (or it's somehow too obvious) that you have money. And I'm not talking $100 million. I'm talking $200k or so. Total assets ignoring debt maybe $2M. Nothing spectacular. Especially if you do this in the "wrong neighborhood". But of course, if there's some reason you have money, you might have picked your residence based on where your company has to be, to be close to your workshop and able to easily drive to various customers, and not on being in the neighborhood with the "correct" social status. (I live in an immigrant neighborhood because of it's location. Richer neighborhoods are generally in the center of cities and not very drive-able but my work requires a car. Also I vastly prefer a big house over rich neighbours)
- fwip 7y ago
  Attacked?

quickthrower2 7y ago

Billionaires do though :-)

jotm 7y ago

I know a Turkish millionaire (German citizen, but he'll never say that), he's living it up in Germany. Then again, his wealth is only because his family bought up a bunch of land and housing in central and southern Turkey. So while they sat on it, living in Germany, other Turks worked hard to develop the cities and business, increasing property value tenfold. A good investment, but one can see why people want the rich taxed more.

baybal2 7y ago
I know a Pakistani millionaire who moved to Norway, and an untold amount of Chinese millionaires who moved to Canada taking their businesses along with them. It is a two way street.

jankotek 7y ago

I do not know about Sweden, but from Norway they do. My friend moved to Prague. He said it is difficult to raise children in Norway if you are a christian. He could not afford to buy a car. There is long waiting list for a house. And Norway is taxing expats even after they leave country (for three years).

rebuilder 7y ago
It doesn't sound like your friend is a millionaire moving to escape taxes.
- jankotek 7y ago
  It is not tax heaven, but taxation in czechia is significantly lower.
Angostura 7y ago
>He said it is difficult to raise children in Norway if you are a christian. What?
- jacobush 7y ago
  Exactly?! - this doesn't jive with my (prejudiced) view of Norway as the "Bible Belt" of Scandinavia.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Isn’t that like saying the most depraved of devout Mormons? It’s technically a defined concept with a sensible meaning but the connotations are misleading.
- jankotek 7y ago
  Barnevernet
  - pjc50 7y ago

zeropnc 7y ago

Um, about half of Sweden’s ten richest people left the country. I don’t get America’s obsession with Scandanavia. Have any of you actually lived there? It’s hilariously overrated.

wsc981 7y ago

I think for the common man it's much harder to avoid taxation than for rich people. I am sure many wealthy Dutch people keep money in offshore companies and the like - there might not be much need for emigration. In the end I would guess wealthy people in The Netherlands pay very little tax. I am just a "normal" freelance software developer myself, but partly due to crazy taxation I did emigrate from The Netherlands (though other factors where part of this decision as well). I think I must have paid close to, or maybe even over 50% tax in The Netherlands, all things considered (including city tax, VAT on products, utilities, etc...) and I also felt I got very little in return (I am sure some people feel tax in The Netherlands is fair, but to each his own).

expertentipp 7y ago

Are you kidding? Netherlands is the EU’s most famous tax evasion destination with overseas tax havens included, Sweden might have low income inequalities but has massive wealth inequalities - see their aristocratic and oligarch families, or the world famous furniture „charity” (coincidentally, its byzantine ownership scheme anchors in Netherlands).

mettamage 7y ago
I wanted to say that you're wrong, but the more I think about The Netherlands, the truth seems to be a bit in your favor. I mean, I know that millionaires in The Netherlands pay taxes, but in most cases that's property/capital tax, which is about 1% (simplifying a lot here). However, that's by far not the full story. People with 1 million are also millionaires and it depends to what extent they evade tax. Let me outline some example groups and how much tax I think they pay. I'm a Dutchie myself, so I feel my guestimates are okay. Millionaire employees: You do have HFT companies where people make between 100,000 euro's to 250,000 euro's but pay 50% in employee tax on average. Also, top positions here are taxed around the same rate. International millionaire employees: The thing is: not all top managers who are also millionaires are domestic. There are quite some Dutchies who are top managers but have been an expat, which means they were paying the employee tax of another country, which is most likely cheaper. These Dutchies sometimes return to The Netherlands after decades of working abroad. I highly doubt though that tax evasion was their biggest motivator, but paying 20% less (number out of thin air, but NL is 50% so the world is 30%) employee tax year over year definitely adds up as these type of people also invest their money. Entrepreneurs and freelancers: A business in The Netherlands that makes 250,000 euro's in profit per year, probably has some tax tricks but my guestimate is that they still pay between 15 to 30% taxes. It really depends on how focused they are on it and how structured they are. I met this one Dutch person who's a freelancer, he makes about a 120,000 euro's per year. I'm pretty sure he pays normal income tax (and gets some deductions because he's a freelancer). Other freelancers that I know are much more focused on it and tend to be on the 15%, maybe even 10% side. Criminals: Criminals need to launder money, they pay their taxes, in a more karmic than bureaucratic way. This is also because most criminals that are millionaires don't seem super duper smart (source: the Dutch news regarding assinations of 15 years ago), but they are quite clever since non-clever criminals get caught, not shot. Inherited wealth: See my first statement, these people are most likely in real estate. There's even an episode about it by Zondag met Lubach [1]. These people evade tax. That's all I know about it. My point is: it's a bit more nuanced than every millionaire not paying tax. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3fywTiEJgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3fywTiEJgM -- Dutch spoken but has English subtitles (non-auto translated)