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As we've heard from other Tesla drivers on HN in the past: Tesla continues to deliver OTA updates, which occasionally causes people to think that previous issue

As we've heard from other Tesla drivers on HN in the past: Tesla continues to deliver OTA updates, which occasionally causes people to think that previous issues have been fixed, especially if they haven't popped up again recently. Either they continue to avoid using autopilot because they can't take the chance of finding out whether Tesla ever bothered fixing the problem, or they give it a test, think it's working fine now, and are lulled into security ... right until it doesn't work again.

zaroth 8y ago
As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the vehicle. The car reminds the driver of this when activating AutoPilot and persistently while under way. The name of the feature could be MagicCarpet, AutoDrive, AutoCruise, SmartPilot, Pilot, Jeeves, I don’t care what. The car says in big bold letters every time you activate the feature to be alert and ready to take over. I also expect the performance of the Beta AutoPilot software to change with each update. Navigate on Autopilot didn’t exist when I first got my Tesla. Blind Spot warning functionality either. Adaptive cruise and merging behavior have both significantly improved. Last week a car in the lane to the left of me put on its blinker and I could have sworn my Tesla slowed down to let them in. I did not notice the car make any rightward motion to enter my lane before my car slowed slightly. It was not a jerky deceleration but just a smooth increase in the distance just enough to maintain the follow distance with the new car in place. The car changed lanes in front of me and we kept driving along. I’ve never seen that before, and I wasn’t aware Tesla could do that based on optical recognition of the blinker alone, but I’m pretty sure that’s what happened. It could be the Tesla saw the car moving to enter the lane before I did, but it had certainly not crossed the dashed line before the deceleration. Drivers flirt with danger when they allow themselves to drive distracted and stop paying full attention to the road, with or without an AutoPilot capability. Two days ago I was driving without AutoPilot and was on a phone call on speakerphone (Bluetooth through the car speakers). It was a fairly contentious call and even though I was hands-free and looking ahead it was definitely the first thing on my mind. I was approaching a left-lane must exit, in the middle of a 3 lane highway when at the last minute a car in the left lane swerved to avoid the exit in front of me. I probably had enough time to slow down without causing an issue behind me, but I hadn’t checked my rear-view in some time due to being distracted by the call. So instead I jerked to the right and moved partially into the right lane. A car in the right lane ~3 car lengths behind me then had to hit their brakes hard enough for their tires to squeal. After reviewing the dashcam video (Tesla records if you plug in a drive) I was unhappy with my choice there. I should have slowed quickly and stayed in lane. If I wasn’t on that call I would have made a better choice. But worth mentioning, if AutoPilot was engaged, it would have made the better choice in that situation as well (since AutoPilot will never swerve to avoid an obstacle in fact).
- gamblor956 8y ago
  As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. Legally, both you and Tesla are at fault if the car crashes. You, for not maintaining full control of the car. And Tesla, for developing the AutoPilot system which directly caused the crash. In this context, Tesla is the "proximate cause* of the crash, so their liability generally would supersede your own. Moreover, in a lawsuit, you and Tesla would be jointly liable for damages, but any sane lawyer would settle with your for a small amount and go after Tesla for the remainder.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - zaroth 8y ago
    You’re the lawyer. Is there case law to support this? I ask not to mean “citation required” but because I would be very interested to read it. I don’t know if and how much Tesla can disclaim responsibility for the crash based on warnings written into the UI and user manual and TOS. For example, I’m fairly certain that autopilot systems on boats do not absolve the Skipper of liability if a boat crashes, and suing a small craft autopilot systems manufacture for maintaining (or not maintaining) a set course into a collision would be laughable. I would also say, if we can’t ship self-driving capabilities without some way of managing and constraining the inherent liability, we will miss out on saving 10s of thousands of lives just because we can not save all the lives.
    - FireBeyond 8y ago
      Autopilot systems on (small) boats neither have, nor advertise, nor imply that they have any form of collision detection, let alone avoidance. Tesla on the other hand describes its system as being safer than human drivers at avoiding accidents.
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      Yes, just break open a 1L torts treatise and there are dozens of cases. The difference between autopilot on a boat and Tesla's Autopilot is a matter of agency/autonomy. Boat and plane autopilots mostly just go in a straight line--they make no decisions. Tesla's autopilot functions autonomously from the driver--and that, legally, makes all the difference, because it can make different decisions from what the driver would do. The driver still bears some responsibility for their failure to oversee and correct TA, but TA bears direct responsibility. The analysis would be different if TA was just a glorified cruise control or lane-keeping system.

zaroth 8y ago

As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the vehicle. The car reminds the driver of this when activating AutoPilot and persistently while under way. The name of the feature could be MagicCarpet, AutoDrive, AutoCruise, SmartPilot, Pilot, Jeeves, I don’t care what. The car says in big bold letters every time you activate the feature to be alert and ready to take over. I also expect the performance of the Beta AutoPilot software to change with each update. Navigate on Autopilot didn’t exist when I first got my Tesla. Blind Spot warning functionality either. Adaptive cruise and merging behavior have both significantly improved. Last week a car in the lane to the left of me put on its blinker and I could have sworn my Tesla slowed down to let them in. I did not notice the car make any rightward motion to enter my lane before my car slowed slightly. It was not a jerky deceleration but just a smooth increase in the distance just enough to maintain the follow distance with the new car in place. The car changed lanes in front of me and we kept driving along. I’ve never seen that before, and I wasn’t aware Tesla could do that based on optical recognition of the blinker alone, but I’m pretty sure that’s what happened. It could be the Tesla saw the car moving to enter the lane before I did, but it had certainly not crossed the dashed line before the deceleration. Drivers flirt with danger when they allow themselves to drive distracted and stop paying full attention to the road, with or without an AutoPilot capability. Two days ago I was driving without AutoPilot and was on a phone call on speakerphone (Bluetooth through the car speakers). It was a fairly contentious call and even though I was hands-free and looking ahead it was definitely the first thing on my mind. I was approaching a left-lane must exit, in the middle of a 3 lane highway when at the last minute a car in the left lane swerved to avoid the exit in front of me. I probably had enough time to slow down without causing an issue behind me, but I hadn’t checked my rear-view in some time due to being distracted by the call. So instead I jerked to the right and moved partially into the right lane. A car in the right lane ~3 car lengths behind me then had to hit their brakes hard enough for their tires to squeal. After reviewing the dashcam video (Tesla records if you plug in a drive) I was unhappy with my choice there. I should have slowed quickly and stayed in lane. If I wasn’t on that call I would have made a better choice. But worth mentioning, if AutoPilot was engaged, it would have made the better choice in that situation as well (since AutoPilot will never swerve to avoid an obstacle in fact).

gamblor956 8y ago
As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. Legally, both you and Tesla are at fault if the car crashes. You, for not maintaining full control of the car. And Tesla, for developing the AutoPilot system which directly caused the crash. In this context, Tesla is the "proximate cause* of the crash, so their liability generally would supersede your own. Moreover, in a lawsuit, you and Tesla would be jointly liable for damages, but any sane lawyer would settle with your for a small amount and go after Tesla for the remainder.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- zaroth 8y ago
  You’re the lawyer. Is there case law to support this? I ask not to mean “citation required” but because I would be very interested to read it. I don’t know if and how much Tesla can disclaim responsibility for the crash based on warnings written into the UI and user manual and TOS. For example, I’m fairly certain that autopilot systems on boats do not absolve the Skipper of liability if a boat crashes, and suing a small craft autopilot systems manufacture for maintaining (or not maintaining) a set course into a collision would be laughable. I would also say, if we can’t ship self-driving capabilities without some way of managing and constraining the inherent liability, we will miss out on saving 10s of thousands of lives just because we can not save all the lives.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    Autopilot systems on (small) boats neither have, nor advertise, nor imply that they have any form of collision detection, let alone avoidance. Tesla on the other hand describes its system as being safer than human drivers at avoiding accidents.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Yes, just break open a 1L torts treatise and there are dozens of cases. The difference between autopilot on a boat and Tesla's Autopilot is a matter of agency/autonomy. Boat and plane autopilots mostly just go in a straight line--they make no decisions. Tesla's autopilot functions autonomously from the driver--and that, legally, makes all the difference, because it can make different decisions from what the driver would do. The driver still bears some responsibility for their failure to oversee and correct TA, but TA bears direct responsibility. The analysis would be different if TA was just a glorified cruise control or lane-keeping system.