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That news about this case is being spread everywhere irks me a bit, because people aren't considering the actual circumstances of the accident. Excerpt from the

That news about this case is being spread everywhere irks me a bit, because people aren't considering the actual circumstances of the accident. Excerpt from the article: "According to the family, Mr. Huang was well aware that Autopilot was not perfect and, specifically, he told them it was not reliable in that exact location, yet he nonetheless engaged Autopilot at that location. The crash happened on a clear day with several hundred feet of visibility ahead, which means that the only way for this accident to have occurred is if Mr. Huang was not paying attention to the road, despite the car providing multiple warnings to do so." This deserves a WTF. He understood autopilot makes errors, complained to his wife several times [0] that the car usually makes errors in that exact spot, and yet wasn't paying enough attention on a clear day with ideal driving conditions to commute safely. [0] "Family members say he complained about his Tesla veering into the same barrier at the exact location of the crash and that he brought his car into the dealership several times to report a problem with the autopilot function." from https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/05/01/family-driver-died-tesla-autopilot-crash-files-lawsuit/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/05/01/family-driver-d...

eloff 7y ago
Sounds like his smartphone is about as liable as Tesla here. If he hadn't been distracted this shouldn't have happened. He knew his autopilot doesn't handle this section of the road.
- threeseed 7y ago
  I'm confused here. Has Tesla publicly stated which sections of the road autopilot doesn't work on ?
  - carlivar 7y ago
    The docs say to keep your hands on the wheel and stay alert at all times. Never mind Tesla CEO on national television taking hands off the wheel and not watching the road.
    - threeseed 7y ago
      I'm fully aware of their recommendation. But if Tesla is aware that certain parts of the road are more likely to cause incidents and they haven't communicated that. Well sounds to me like that would be criminally negligent.
      - elpool2 7y ago
        Surely there's some sort of "autopilot does not work on all roads" disclaimer, right? That's why you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention.
        natch 7y ago
        Yep, there is.
        carlivar 7y ago
        Just like there is a warning on cigarettes, yet we have stopped allowing smoking in enclosed public places. Kind of like driving on a freeway...
      - natch 7y ago
        So like when a manufacturer puts a label on a set of knives saying “warning, bottom edge is sharp” something like that? Except popping up on the screen as you drive every five seconds so you can read about the hazards you are seeing outside the windows? Nanny car, anyone? I think drivers are already well aware that roads contain an ever changing variety of risks, and they can see the signs of these risks with their eyes. The driver in this case was acutely aware that the beta software could not yet properly handle that segment of road. So much so that he even visited the Tesla service center specifically to let them know about the issue.
        threeseed 7y ago
        You know there's a difference between a kitchen knife and a 1 tonne metal structure travelling at 100km/h on a freeway. People are dying from Tesla failing to let their users know when and where autopilot should be used.
  - natch 7y ago
    It’s clear from what Elon said about high definition maps that Tesla’s stance is that roadways are dynamic environments that can change at any time.
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    > Has Tesla publicly stated which sections of the road autopilot doesn't work on ? yes: noone of them. you are to be able to take control at all time.
js2 7y ago
Well yeah but he’s not the one suing. The family lost him and probably isn’t thinking rationally. Or, maybe they are thinking rationally. Lawyers probably took the suit on contingency right?
- Jonanin 7y ago
  That's fair enough, but the problem I have is the way this event is being portrayed in news and social media. The implication everywhere is that autopilot just unexpectedly swerved into a wall and there was nothing the driver could have done. It actually was expected, and any reasonable driver could have easily prevented it, because it had almost happened so many times in the past.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
    This is the issue with wireless updates on any vehicle. What if tomorrow Autopilot is updated and it begins occurring 2 miles down the road?
    - slg 7y ago
      On the flip side, Tesla fixed this specific issue (and apparently unfixed it again) with over the air updates. If this was another manufacturer the cars would need to be recalled and it would likely be years before a fix was rolled out to all vehicles and therefore lives would continue to be in danger. So it isn't like over the air updates are inherently bad. The reality of the situation is that there almost certainly needs to be some level of government oversight over this type of thing.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
        I won't argue against over the air for everything but when your 'autopilot' system can be updated any day for any reason, I would argue that it failing and killing you shouldn't be as excusable.
patejam 7y ago
Why does that matter? The next person who comes by with autopilot on who doesn't know that might also die.
- franciskim 7y ago
  That's a great point.
yumraj 7y ago
Your argument sounds the same as: people who smoke know that cigarettes cause cancer, in fact it says that on the pack, still they decide to smoke. So, if they get cancer and die it's their fault not the cigarette manufacturer's.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Which is right.
- IAmGraydon 7y ago
  Do you disagree with that?
- mikeash 7y ago
  Cigarette manufacturers got sued into oblivion because they suppressed science and insisted their product was beneficial. Now that they acknowledge the dangers, nobody’s suing.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    Of course people are still suing. And in many countries governments are continuing to sue as well. Just Google it. Plenty of examples.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      How many of them are not based on previous lies and fraudulent claims by tobacco companies?
    - FireBeyond 7y ago
      People are suing based on injury and illness that occurred during the period this knowledge was being suppressed, etc. Not because they took up smoking last year and are sick.
- codetrotter 7y ago
  Knowingly manufacturing a product that has such a high risk of causing cancer as do cigarettes is certainly unethical in my opinion. But today when that risk is known to consumers (as opposed to in the past when it was not) it is ultimately the responsibility of anyone that decide to start smoking today when doing so ends up giving them cancer. I say this as someone who is a low volume consumer of another tobacco product (Swedish snus) that is also bad for my health and which also has a risk of giving me a form of cancer (oral cancer). I am betting on the fact that I keep my use of the product on the low end to save me. But I accept the fact that I am to blame if this ends up giving me cancer.
arkades 7y ago
As we've heard from other Tesla drivers on HN in the past: Tesla continues to deliver OTA updates, which occasionally causes people to think that previous issues have been fixed, especially if they haven't popped up again recently. Either they continue to avoid using autopilot because they can't take the chance of finding out whether Tesla ever bothered fixing the problem, or they give it a test, think it's working fine now, and are lulled into security ... right until it doesn't work again.
- zaroth 7y ago
  As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the vehicle. The car reminds the driver of this when activating AutoPilot and persistently while under way. The name of the feature could be MagicCarpet, AutoDrive, AutoCruise, SmartPilot, Pilot, Jeeves, I don’t care what. The car says in big bold letters every time you activate the feature to be alert and ready to take over. I also expect the performance of the Beta AutoPilot software to change with each update. Navigate on Autopilot didn’t exist when I first got my Tesla. Blind Spot warning functionality either. Adaptive cruise and merging behavior have both significantly improved. Last week a car in the lane to the left of me put on its blinker and I could have sworn my Tesla slowed down to let them in. I did not notice the car make any rightward motion to enter my lane before my car slowed slightly. It was not a jerky deceleration but just a smooth increase in the distance just enough to maintain the follow distance with the new car in place. The car changed lanes in front of me and we kept driving along. I’ve never seen that before, and I wasn’t aware Tesla could do that based on optical recognition of the blinker alone, but I’m pretty sure that’s what happened. It could be the Tesla saw the car moving to enter the lane before I did, but it had certainly not crossed the dashed line before the deceleration. Drivers flirt with danger when they allow themselves to drive distracted and stop paying full attention to the road, with or without an AutoPilot capability. Two days ago I was driving without AutoPilot and was on a phone call on speakerphone (Bluetooth through the car speakers). It was a fairly contentious call and even though I was hands-free and looking ahead it was definitely the first thing on my mind. I was approaching a left-lane must exit, in the middle of a 3 lane highway when at the last minute a car in the left lane swerved to avoid the exit in front of me. I probably had enough time to slow down without causing an issue behind me, but I hadn’t checked my rear-view in some time due to being distracted by the call. So instead I jerked to the right and moved partially into the right lane. A car in the right lane ~3 car lengths behind me then had to hit their brakes hard enough for their tires to squeal. After reviewing the dashcam video (Tesla records if you plug in a drive) I was unhappy with my choice there. I should have slowed quickly and stayed in lane. If I wasn’t on that call I would have made a better choice. But worth mentioning, if AutoPilot was engaged, it would have made the better choice in that situation as well (since AutoPilot will never swerve to avoid an obstacle in fact).
jonas21 7y ago
That's an excerpt from a statement made by Tesla that is quoted in the article. Tesla was reprimanded by the NTSB for making statements like this during the investigation process.
- Jonanin 7y ago
  The article I linked in the footnote has quotes that are arguably more WTF than the Tesla statement. It quotes the wife describing how she had told him many times that the car was swerving in that spot.
losteric 7y ago
These articles take off because the general (non-Tesla-owning) public believes "autopilot" is full autonomy and Tesla is covering something up. If this was branded as a "driving assistant", people wouldn't bat an eye when the driver failed to maintain control.

eloff 7y ago

Sounds like his smartphone is about as liable as Tesla here. If he hadn't been distracted this shouldn't have happened. He knew his autopilot doesn't handle this section of the road.

threeseed 7y ago
I'm confused here. Has Tesla publicly stated which sections of the road autopilot doesn't work on ?
- carlivar 7y ago
  The docs say to keep your hands on the wheel and stay alert at all times. Never mind Tesla CEO on national television taking hands off the wheel and not watching the road.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    I'm fully aware of their recommendation. But if Tesla is aware that certain parts of the road are more likely to cause incidents and they haven't communicated that. Well sounds to me like that would be criminally negligent.
    - elpool2 7y ago
      Surely there's some sort of "autopilot does not work on all roads" disclaimer, right? That's why you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention.
      - natch 7y ago
        Yep, there is.
      - carlivar 7y ago
        Just like there is a warning on cigarettes, yet we have stopped allowing smoking in enclosed public places. Kind of like driving on a freeway...
    - natch 7y ago
      So like when a manufacturer puts a label on a set of knives saying “warning, bottom edge is sharp” something like that? Except popping up on the screen as you drive every five seconds so you can read about the hazards you are seeing outside the windows? Nanny car, anyone? I think drivers are already well aware that roads contain an ever changing variety of risks, and they can see the signs of these risks with their eyes. The driver in this case was acutely aware that the beta software could not yet properly handle that segment of road. So much so that he even visited the Tesla service center specifically to let them know about the issue.
      - threeseed 7y ago
        You know there's a difference between a kitchen knife and a 1 tonne metal structure travelling at 100km/h on a freeway. People are dying from Tesla failing to let their users know when and where autopilot should be used.
- natch 7y ago
  It’s clear from what Elon said about high definition maps that Tesla’s stance is that roadways are dynamic environments that can change at any time.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  > Has Tesla publicly stated which sections of the road autopilot doesn't work on ? yes: noone of them. you are to be able to take control at all time.

js2 7y ago

Well yeah but he’s not the one suing. The family lost him and probably isn’t thinking rationally. Or, maybe they are thinking rationally. Lawyers probably took the suit on contingency right?

Jonanin 7y ago
That's fair enough, but the problem I have is the way this event is being portrayed in news and social media. The implication everywhere is that autopilot just unexpectedly swerved into a wall and there was nothing the driver could have done. It actually was expected, and any reasonable driver could have easily prevented it, because it had almost happened so many times in the past.
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  This is the issue with wireless updates on any vehicle. What if tomorrow Autopilot is updated and it begins occurring 2 miles down the road?
  - slg 7y ago
    On the flip side, Tesla fixed this specific issue (and apparently unfixed it again) with over the air updates. If this was another manufacturer the cars would need to be recalled and it would likely be years before a fix was rolled out to all vehicles and therefore lives would continue to be in danger. So it isn't like over the air updates are inherently bad. The reality of the situation is that there almost certainly needs to be some level of government oversight over this type of thing.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
      I won't argue against over the air for everything but when your 'autopilot' system can be updated any day for any reason, I would argue that it failing and killing you shouldn't be as excusable.

patejam 7y ago

Why does that matter? The next person who comes by with autopilot on who doesn't know that might also die.

franciskim 7y ago
That's a great point.

yumraj 7y ago

Your argument sounds the same as: people who smoke know that cigarettes cause cancer, in fact it says that on the pack, still they decide to smoke. So, if they get cancer and die it's their fault not the cigarette manufacturer's.

jimmaswell 7y ago
Which is right.
IAmGraydon 7y ago
Do you disagree with that?
mikeash 7y ago
Cigarette manufacturers got sued into oblivion because they suppressed science and insisted their product was beneficial. Now that they acknowledge the dangers, nobody’s suing.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Of course people are still suing. And in many countries governments are continuing to sue as well. Just Google it. Plenty of examples.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    How many of them are not based on previous lies and fraudulent claims by tobacco companies?
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    People are suing based on injury and illness that occurred during the period this knowledge was being suppressed, etc. Not because they took up smoking last year and are sick.
codetrotter 7y ago
Knowingly manufacturing a product that has such a high risk of causing cancer as do cigarettes is certainly unethical in my opinion. But today when that risk is known to consumers (as opposed to in the past when it was not) it is ultimately the responsibility of anyone that decide to start smoking today when doing so ends up giving them cancer. I say this as someone who is a low volume consumer of another tobacco product (Swedish snus) that is also bad for my health and which also has a risk of giving me a form of cancer (oral cancer). I am betting on the fact that I keep my use of the product on the low end to save me. But I accept the fact that I am to blame if this ends up giving me cancer.

arkades 7y ago

As we've heard from other Tesla drivers on HN in the past: Tesla continues to deliver OTA updates, which occasionally causes people to think that previous issues have been fixed, especially if they haven't popped up again recently. Either they continue to avoid using autopilot because they can't take the chance of finding out whether Tesla ever bothered fixing the problem, or they give it a test, think it's working fine now, and are lulled into security ... right until it doesn't work again.

zaroth 7y ago
As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the vehicle. The car reminds the driver of this when activating AutoPilot and persistently while under way. The name of the feature could be MagicCarpet, AutoDrive, AutoCruise, SmartPilot, Pilot, Jeeves, I don’t care what. The car says in big bold letters every time you activate the feature to be alert and ready to take over. I also expect the performance of the Beta AutoPilot software to change with each update. Navigate on Autopilot didn’t exist when I first got my Tesla. Blind Spot warning functionality either. Adaptive cruise and merging behavior have both significantly improved. Last week a car in the lane to the left of me put on its blinker and I could have sworn my Tesla slowed down to let them in. I did not notice the car make any rightward motion to enter my lane before my car slowed slightly. It was not a jerky deceleration but just a smooth increase in the distance just enough to maintain the follow distance with the new car in place. The car changed lanes in front of me and we kept driving along. I’ve never seen that before, and I wasn’t aware Tesla could do that based on optical recognition of the blinker alone, but I’m pretty sure that’s what happened. It could be the Tesla saw the car moving to enter the lane before I did, but it had certainly not crossed the dashed line before the deceleration. Drivers flirt with danger when they allow themselves to drive distracted and stop paying full attention to the road, with or without an AutoPilot capability. Two days ago I was driving without AutoPilot and was on a phone call on speakerphone (Bluetooth through the car speakers). It was a fairly contentious call and even though I was hands-free and looking ahead it was definitely the first thing on my mind. I was approaching a left-lane must exit, in the middle of a 3 lane highway when at the last minute a car in the left lane swerved to avoid the exit in front of me. I probably had enough time to slow down without causing an issue behind me, but I hadn’t checked my rear-view in some time due to being distracted by the call. So instead I jerked to the right and moved partially into the right lane. A car in the right lane ~3 car lengths behind me then had to hit their brakes hard enough for their tires to squeal. After reviewing the dashcam video (Tesla records if you plug in a drive) I was unhappy with my choice there. I should have slowed quickly and stayed in lane. If I wasn’t on that call I would have made a better choice. But worth mentioning, if AutoPilot was engaged, it would have made the better choice in that situation as well (since AutoPilot will never swerve to avoid an obstacle in fact).

jonas21 7y ago

That's an excerpt from a statement made by Tesla that is quoted in the article. Tesla was reprimanded by the NTSB for making statements like this during the investigation process.

Jonanin 7y ago
The article I linked in the footnote has quotes that are arguably more WTF than the Tesla statement. It quotes the wife describing how she had told him many times that the car was swerving in that spot.

losteric 7y ago

These articles take off because the general (non-Tesla-owning) public believes "autopilot" is full autonomy and Tesla is covering something up. If this was branded as a "driving assistant", people wouldn't bat an eye when the driver failed to maintain control.