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What I probably should have added here is that Buddhist meditation practice gives you tools for understanding why distraction happens. The whole practice is an

by girzel 7y ago

What I probably should have added here is that Buddhist meditation practice gives you tools for understanding why distraction happens. The whole practice is an examination of the nature of the mind and its multiplicity, and why it is prone to distraction. Instead of just wringing one's hands in frustration and grumbling about why it's so hard.

mistermann 7y ago
Aren't we told that one should cease thinking during meditation?
- perfmode 7y ago
  Meditation is about awareness and deidentification
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Indeed, but anything I've read on it suggests stopping thoughts. "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath". This seems contrary to what is written here.
    - perfmode 7y ago
      Specifically, what part is contrary?
      - mistermann 7y ago
        From the article: > “Their job, more than anything else, was to focus on divine communication. For these monks, the meditating mind wasn’t supposed to be at ease. It was supposed to be energised. Their favourite words for describing concentration stemmed from the Latin tenere, to hold tight to something. The ideal was a mens intentus, a mind that was always and actively reaching out to its target.” > Even the monastic renunciation of worldly goods and relationships supported concentration: the fewer things going on your life, they reasoned, the fewer things to distract you while trying to think about God. What seems to be popular mainstream advice: > "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath." A fairly typical article in my experience: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-meditation-10-tips-to-calm-in-10-minutes_n_8995426 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-m... > How to Stop Thinking During Meditation: 10 Tips to Calm in 10 Minutes > Have you tried meditation only to get frustrated because you can't stop thinking or worrying? Maybe you worry so much that you feel more stressed after meditation than when you began! If you struggle with constant thoughts during meditation, don't give up yet! These tips are simple but powerful to get your mind calm and clear. In the first example, it sounds to me like thinking is a goal, something to be pursued. In the second example(s), it sounds to me like thinking is an undesirable state, something to be avoided.
        girzel 7y ago
        Yup, that's still sounding a lot like Buddhist meditation to me. There, too, your mind isn't supposed to be quiescent, in fact one of the early pitfalls is "dullness", or simply shutting your brain off. You're meant to remain perfectly focused, and entirely alert. "Tenere", while probably not the way Buddhists would describe their meditative practice, isn't at all at odds with it. I'm not an expert, but it feels to me like in both traditions the goal is to be completely present, ie all mental faculties up and running and brought to bear. Perhaps for the Christian monks there would be an added element of communication with God (but, perhaps, it was simply being in His presence?), whereas for Buddhists there isn't... I don't know. The point of Buddhist meditation isn't to somehow beat your thoughts into submission. It's first to acknowledge them, as you say allowing them to come and go. During the course of that you realize that they are something separate and distinct from your self (further realizations about the self come later, of course). Later on, as you progress, they eventually don't intrude anymore. It's not that you've defeated them, they simply don't pop up.
        mistermann 7y ago
        > There, too, your mind isn't supposed to be quiescent, in fact one of the early pitfalls is "dullness", or simply shutting your brain off. You're meant to remain perfectly focused, and entirely alert. Alert to what's going on around you, or being present and not distracted by unwanted thoughts....this is my understanding anyways. > ie all mental faculties up and running and brought to bear. "Brought to bear" on what though I think is what I'm getting at. > Later on, as you progress, they eventually don't intrude anymore. It's not that you've defeated them, they simply don't pop up. And then what is also what I'm getting that. From the linked article: > "A more advanced method for concentrating was to build elaborate mental structures in the course of reading and thinking. Nuns, monks, preachers and the people they educated were always encouraged to visualise the material they were processing. A branchy tree or a finely feathered angel – or in the case of Hugh of St Victor (who wrote a vivid little guide to this strategy in the 12th century), a multilevel ark in the heart of the cosmos – could become the template for dividing complex material into an ordered system. The images might closely correspond to the substance of an idea. Hugh, for example, imagined a column rising out of his ark that stood for the tree of life in paradise, which as it ascended linked the earth on the ark to the generations past, and on to the vault of the heavens. Or instead, the images might only be organisational placeholders, where a tree representing a text or topic (say, ‘Natural Law’) could have eight branches and eight fruits on each branch, representing 64 different ideas clustered into eight larger concepts." > "The point wasn’t to paint these pictures on parchment. It was to give the mind something to draw, to indulge its appetite for aesthetically interesting forms while sorting its ideas into some logical structure. I teach medieval cognitive techniques to college freshmen, and this last one is by far their favourite. Constructing complex mental apparatuses gives them a way to organise – and, in the process, analyse – material they need to learn for other classes. The process also keeps their minds occupied with something that feels palpable and riveting. Concentration and critical thinking, in this mode, feel less like a slog and more like a game." "while sorting its ideas into some logical structure" and "constructing complex mental apparatuses....process, analyse – material they need to learn" - might these be tasks a highly capable meditator would be perform during meditation, deeply contemplating a particular topic, as opposed to simply being present with a clear mind? The article doesn't really say definitively. A modern day example of this might be a pastor working on next Sunday's sermon, say to deliver the ideas from scripture in a way that is relatable to his congregation - might a deeply meditative state be highly conducive to such complex tasks?
    - amp108 7y ago
      There are many kinds of meditation. The unifying idea behind them all is that it deliberately directs the mind to some task, but the tasks can be widely different. What you're describing is just one way to practice a particular kind of mindfulness meditation.
- samus 7y ago
  There are many kinds of meditation practice. Some of them involve trying to cease thinking. Buddhism seems to concede that this is not so easy and tries to help people gain insight into their thought loops and habits.

by girzel 7y ago

mistermann 7y ago

Aren't we told that one should cease thinking during meditation?

perfmode 7y ago
Meditation is about awareness and deidentification
- mistermann 7y ago
  Indeed, but anything I've read on it suggests stopping thoughts. "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath". This seems contrary to what is written here.
  - perfmode 7y ago
    Specifically, what part is contrary?
    - mistermann 7y ago
      From the article: > “Their job, more than anything else, was to focus on divine communication. For these monks, the meditating mind wasn’t supposed to be at ease. It was supposed to be energised. Their favourite words for describing concentration stemmed from the Latin tenere, to hold tight to something. The ideal was a mens intentus, a mind that was always and actively reaching out to its target.” > Even the monastic renunciation of worldly goods and relationships supported concentration: the fewer things going on your life, they reasoned, the fewer things to distract you while trying to think about God. What seems to be popular mainstream advice: > "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath." A fairly typical article in my experience: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-meditation-10-tips-to-calm-in-10-minutes_n_8995426 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-m... > How to Stop Thinking During Meditation: 10 Tips to Calm in 10 Minutes > Have you tried meditation only to get frustrated because you can't stop thinking or worrying? Maybe you worry so much that you feel more stressed after meditation than when you began! If you struggle with constant thoughts during meditation, don't give up yet! These tips are simple but powerful to get your mind calm and clear. In the first example, it sounds to me like thinking is a goal, something to be pursued. In the second example(s), it sounds to me like thinking is an undesirable state, something to be avoided.
      - girzel 7y ago
        Yup, that's still sounding a lot like Buddhist meditation to me. There, too, your mind isn't supposed to be quiescent, in fact one of the early pitfalls is "dullness", or simply shutting your brain off. You're meant to remain perfectly focused, and entirely alert. "Tenere", while probably not the way Buddhists would describe their meditative practice, isn't at all at odds with it. I'm not an expert, but it feels to me like in both traditions the goal is to be completely present, ie all mental faculties up and running and brought to bear. Perhaps for the Christian monks there would be an added element of communication with God (but, perhaps, it was simply being in His presence?), whereas for Buddhists there isn't... I don't know. The point of Buddhist meditation isn't to somehow beat your thoughts into submission. It's first to acknowledge them, as you say allowing them to come and go. During the course of that you realize that they are something separate and distinct from your self (further realizations about the self come later, of course). Later on, as you progress, they eventually don't intrude anymore. It's not that you've defeated them, they simply don't pop up.
        mistermann 7y ago
        > There, too, your mind isn't supposed to be quiescent, in fact one of the early pitfalls is "dullness", or simply shutting your brain off. You're meant to remain perfectly focused, and entirely alert. Alert to what's going on around you, or being present and not distracted by unwanted thoughts....this is my understanding anyways. > ie all mental faculties up and running and brought to bear. "Brought to bear" on what though I think is what I'm getting at. > Later on, as you progress, they eventually don't intrude anymore. It's not that you've defeated them, they simply don't pop up. And then what is also what I'm getting that. From the linked article: > "A more advanced method for concentrating was to build elaborate mental structures in the course of reading and thinking. Nuns, monks, preachers and the people they educated were always encouraged to visualise the material they were processing. A branchy tree or a finely feathered angel – or in the case of Hugh of St Victor (who wrote a vivid little guide to this strategy in the 12th century), a multilevel ark in the heart of the cosmos – could become the template for dividing complex material into an ordered system. The images might closely correspond to the substance of an idea. Hugh, for example, imagined a column rising out of his ark that stood for the tree of life in paradise, which as it ascended linked the earth on the ark to the generations past, and on to the vault of the heavens. Or instead, the images might only be organisational placeholders, where a tree representing a text or topic (say, ‘Natural Law’) could have eight branches and eight fruits on each branch, representing 64 different ideas clustered into eight larger concepts." > "The point wasn’t to paint these pictures on parchment. It was to give the mind something to draw, to indulge its appetite for aesthetically interesting forms while sorting its ideas into some logical structure. I teach medieval cognitive techniques to college freshmen, and this last one is by far their favourite. Constructing complex mental apparatuses gives them a way to organise – and, in the process, analyse – material they need to learn for other classes. The process also keeps their minds occupied with something that feels palpable and riveting. Concentration and critical thinking, in this mode, feel less like a slog and more like a game." "while sorting its ideas into some logical structure" and "constructing complex mental apparatuses....process, analyse – material they need to learn" - might these be tasks a highly capable meditator would be perform during meditation, deeply contemplating a particular topic, as opposed to simply being present with a clear mind? The article doesn't really say definitively. A modern day example of this might be a pastor working on next Sunday's sermon, say to deliver the ideas from scripture in a way that is relatable to his congregation - might a deeply meditative state be highly conducive to such complex tasks?
  - amp108 7y ago
    There are many kinds of meditation. The unifying idea behind them all is that it deliberately directs the mind to some task, but the tasks can be widely different. What you're describing is just one way to practice a particular kind of mindfulness meditation.
samus 7y ago
There are many kinds of meditation practice. Some of them involve trying to cease thinking. Buddhism seems to concede that this is not so easy and tries to help people gain insight into their thought loops and habits.