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This article is a bit weird in that it goes in to all this stuff about the monks' struggle to focus, but never once talks about the practice of meditation. Read

by girzel 7y ago

This article is a bit weird in that it goes in to all this stuff about the monks' struggle to focus, but never once talks about the practice of meditation. Reading the first few paragraphs, I was thinking "this is precisely what meditation is for". These are exactly the issues meditation addresses. "Distraction is an old problem, and so is the fantasy that it can be dodged once and for all." Except that that's precisely what meditation practice does.

girzel 7y ago
What I probably should have added here is that Buddhist meditation practice gives you tools for understanding why distraction happens. The whole practice is an examination of the nature of the mind and its multiplicity, and why it is prone to distraction. Instead of just wringing one's hands in frustration and grumbling about why it's so hard.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Aren't we told that one should cease thinking during meditation?
  - perfmode 7y ago
    Meditation is about awareness and deidentification
    - mistermann 7y ago
      Indeed, but anything I've read on it suggests stopping thoughts. "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath". This seems contrary to what is written here.
      - perfmode 7y ago
        Specifically, what part is contrary?
        mistermann 7y ago
        From the article: > “Their job, more than anything else, was to focus on divine communication. For these monks, the meditating mind wasn’t supposed to be at ease. It was supposed to be energised. Their favourite words for describing concentration stemmed from the Latin tenere, to hold tight to something. The ideal was a mens intentus, a mind that was always and actively reaching out to its target.” > Even the monastic renunciation of worldly goods and relationships supported concentration: the fewer things going on your life, they reasoned, the fewer things to distract you while trying to think about God. What seems to be popular mainstream advice: > "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath." A fairly typical article in my experience: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-meditation-10-tips-to-calm-in-10-minutes_n_8995426 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-m... > How to Stop Thinking During Meditation: 10 Tips to Calm in 10 Minutes > Have you tried meditation only to get frustrated because you can't stop thinking or worrying? Maybe you worry so much that you feel more stressed after meditation than when you began! If you struggle with constant thoughts during meditation, don't give up yet! These tips are simple but powerful to get your mind calm and clear. In the first example, it sounds to me like thinking is a goal, something to be pursued. In the second example(s), it sounds to me like thinking is an undesirable state, something to be avoided.
        girzel 7y ago
        Yup, that's still sounding a lot like Buddhist meditation to me. There, too, your mind isn't supposed to be quiescent, in fact one of the early pitfalls is "dullness", or simply shutting your brain off. You're meant to remain perfectly focused, and entirely alert. "Tenere", while probably not the way Buddhists would describe their meditative practice, isn't at all at odds with it. I'm not an expert, but it feels to me like in both traditions the goal is to be completely present, ie all mental faculties up and running and brought to bear. Perhaps for the Christian monks there would be an added element of communication with God (but, perhaps, it was simply being in His presence?), whereas for Buddhists there isn't... I don't know. The point of Buddhist meditation isn't to somehow beat your thoughts into submission. It's first to acknowledge them, as you say allowing them to come and go. During the course of that you realize that they are something separate and distinct from your self (further realizations about the self come later, of course). Later on, as you progress, they eventually don't intrude anymore. It's not that you've defeated them, they simply don't pop up.
      - amp108 7y ago
        There are many kinds of meditation. The unifying idea behind them all is that it deliberately directs the mind to some task, but the tasks can be widely different. What you're describing is just one way to practice a particular kind of mindfulness meditation.
  - samus 7y ago
    There are many kinds of meditation practice. Some of them involve trying to cease thinking. Buddhism seems to concede that this is not so easy and tries to help people gain insight into their thought loops and habits.
perfmode 7y ago
The entire article was about the monks’ practices of meditation. Wherever you are oneness with God, you can substitute meditation. In fact, the physical, structural, and nutritional habits were precisely in service to this meditation. You need to eat well and have a healthy body to get the most from meditation.
- FearNotDaniel 7y ago
  Agreed. Probably confusing for some because the article didn't name any specific practices that would very much be considered "meditation" when stripped of cultural baggage. Modern Catholicism still greatly encourages such activities as eucharistic adoration (a silent reflection) and rosary devotions (a form of mantra), and the monks of old would have devoted enormous amounts of time to these as well as fulfilling the daily office; but modern secular culture does not find these things nearly as palatable as the Buddhist-influenced mindfulness practices so they tend to get left out of articles like this.

by girzel 7y ago

girzel 7y ago

What I probably should have added here is that Buddhist meditation practice gives you tools for understanding why distraction happens. The whole practice is an examination of the nature of the mind and its multiplicity, and why it is prone to distraction. Instead of just wringing one's hands in frustration and grumbling about why it's so hard.

mistermann 7y ago
Aren't we told that one should cease thinking during meditation?
- perfmode 7y ago
  Meditation is about awareness and deidentification
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Indeed, but anything I've read on it suggests stopping thoughts. "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath". This seems contrary to what is written here.
    - perfmode 7y ago
      Specifically, what part is contrary?
      - mistermann 7y ago
        From the article: > “Their job, more than anything else, was to focus on divine communication. For these monks, the meditating mind wasn’t supposed to be at ease. It was supposed to be energised. Their favourite words for describing concentration stemmed from the Latin tenere, to hold tight to something. The ideal was a mens intentus, a mind that was always and actively reaching out to its target.” > Even the monastic renunciation of worldly goods and relationships supported concentration: the fewer things going on your life, they reasoned, the fewer things to distract you while trying to think about God. What seems to be popular mainstream advice: > "If you notice yourself thinking, let it pass by and bring attention back to the breath." A fairly typical article in my experience: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-meditation-10-tips-to-calm-in-10-minutes_n_8995426 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-stop-thinking-during-m... > How to Stop Thinking During Meditation: 10 Tips to Calm in 10 Minutes > Have you tried meditation only to get frustrated because you can't stop thinking or worrying? Maybe you worry so much that you feel more stressed after meditation than when you began! If you struggle with constant thoughts during meditation, don't give up yet! These tips are simple but powerful to get your mind calm and clear. In the first example, it sounds to me like thinking is a goal, something to be pursued. In the second example(s), it sounds to me like thinking is an undesirable state, something to be avoided.
        girzel 7y ago
        Yup, that's still sounding a lot like Buddhist meditation to me. There, too, your mind isn't supposed to be quiescent, in fact one of the early pitfalls is "dullness", or simply shutting your brain off. You're meant to remain perfectly focused, and entirely alert. "Tenere", while probably not the way Buddhists would describe their meditative practice, isn't at all at odds with it. I'm not an expert, but it feels to me like in both traditions the goal is to be completely present, ie all mental faculties up and running and brought to bear. Perhaps for the Christian monks there would be an added element of communication with God (but, perhaps, it was simply being in His presence?), whereas for Buddhists there isn't... I don't know. The point of Buddhist meditation isn't to somehow beat your thoughts into submission. It's first to acknowledge them, as you say allowing them to come and go. During the course of that you realize that they are something separate and distinct from your self (further realizations about the self come later, of course). Later on, as you progress, they eventually don't intrude anymore. It's not that you've defeated them, they simply don't pop up.
    - amp108 7y ago
      There are many kinds of meditation. The unifying idea behind them all is that it deliberately directs the mind to some task, but the tasks can be widely different. What you're describing is just one way to practice a particular kind of mindfulness meditation.
- samus 7y ago
  There are many kinds of meditation practice. Some of them involve trying to cease thinking. Buddhism seems to concede that this is not so easy and tries to help people gain insight into their thought loops and habits.

perfmode 7y ago

The entire article was about the monks’ practices of meditation. Wherever you are oneness with God, you can substitute meditation. In fact, the physical, structural, and nutritional habits were precisely in service to this meditation. You need to eat well and have a healthy body to get the most from meditation.

FearNotDaniel 7y ago
Agreed. Probably confusing for some because the article didn't name any specific practices that would very much be considered "meditation" when stripped of cultural baggage. Modern Catholicism still greatly encourages such activities as eucharistic adoration (a silent reflection) and rosary devotions (a form of mantra), and the monks of old would have devoted enormous amounts of time to these as well as fulfilling the daily office; but modern secular culture does not find these things nearly as palatable as the Buddhist-influenced mindfulness practices so they tend to get left out of articles like this.