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Interesting historical note: the Puritans, also known for being extremely hard working, pointed out the monks had correctly identified the problem but misident

Interesting historical note: the Puritans, also known for being extremely hard working, pointed out the monks had correctly identified the problem but misidentified the solution.

rexpop 8y ago
In what text did they point this out?
- ARandomerDude 8y ago
  Two that come to mind are John Owen's The Mortification of Sin and Jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections. They agree with the monks that the body is weak, and often desires what is bad for you. Likewise, the mind is weak, unfocused, and filled with pride, jealousy, etc. Both agree that a focused, pure (holy) life is the goal. Where they differ is what to do about it. The monks advise rigor, abstinence, and communal separation. The idea is if you're good enough, God will accept you. The Puritans say "just try harder" is a counsel of despair because perfection is impossible, and rule-following is always incomplete (there are always more rules to follow). So, the Puritans say ask God for strength to live uprightly, knowing that forgiveness is given by Christ, not a reward for good deeds.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    They also shunned, kicked out or hanged anyone that didn't "try hard enough" so I wouldn't take their philosophical/religious opinions too seriously. They believed in a merciful god because the earthly reality they subjected themselves to was anything but (i.e. it was a coping mechanism). They basically ran the closest thing to a caliphate to ever exist in the western hemisphere. Of course they put a good spin on it but every utopia is also a dystopia.
    - ARandomerDude 8y ago
      Hmmm...that doesn't seem to fit the historical data. Most of what they said was inline with protestantism generally. For example Luther (certainly no Puritan!) said this as early as 1518: > The law says, "do this," and it is never done. Grace says, "believe in this," and everything is already done. At most we could say they didn't live according to their preached views, but that's still too broad a brush stroke. For example, the Salem trials (1692) were viewed with near universal horror outside the immediate area, and Salem itself publicly apologized (1696) to the victims, reversed the convictions (1703), and paid restitution to their families (1711). Shunning was an Anabaptist practice (Menno Simons in Germany -> Mennonites, most famously Amish) not a Puritan practice. Most Christians, including Edwards, have regarded shunning as a cultish aberration since it appeared on the scene in the 1530s. My point in saying all this: fair criticism is good, and evaluation of their doctrine is fine. But pop culture "knowledge" on this issue is pretty wide of the mark. Also: I'm not a Puritan. I just like history. :-)

Interesting historical note: the Puritans, also known for being extremely hard working, pointed out the monks had correctly identified the problem but misidentified the solution.

rexpop 8y ago

In what text did they point this out?

ARandomerDude 8y ago
Two that come to mind are John Owen's The Mortification of Sin and Jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections. They agree with the monks that the body is weak, and often desires what is bad for you. Likewise, the mind is weak, unfocused, and filled with pride, jealousy, etc. Both agree that a focused, pure (holy) life is the goal. Where they differ is what to do about it. The monks advise rigor, abstinence, and communal separation. The idea is if you're good enough, God will accept you. The Puritans say "just try harder" is a counsel of despair because perfection is impossible, and rule-following is always incomplete (there are always more rules to follow). So, the Puritans say ask God for strength to live uprightly, knowing that forgiveness is given by Christ, not a reward for good deeds.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  They also shunned, kicked out or hanged anyone that didn't "try hard enough" so I wouldn't take their philosophical/religious opinions too seriously. They believed in a merciful god because the earthly reality they subjected themselves to was anything but (i.e. it was a coping mechanism). They basically ran the closest thing to a caliphate to ever exist in the western hemisphere. Of course they put a good spin on it but every utopia is also a dystopia.
  - ARandomerDude 8y ago
    Hmmm...that doesn't seem to fit the historical data. Most of what they said was inline with protestantism generally. For example Luther (certainly no Puritan!) said this as early as 1518: > The law says, "do this," and it is never done. Grace says, "believe in this," and everything is already done. At most we could say they didn't live according to their preached views, but that's still too broad a brush stroke. For example, the Salem trials (1692) were viewed with near universal horror outside the immediate area, and Salem itself publicly apologized (1696) to the victims, reversed the convictions (1703), and paid restitution to their families (1711). Shunning was an Anabaptist practice (Menno Simons in Germany -> Mennonites, most famously Amish) not a Puritan practice. Most Christians, including Edwards, have regarded shunning as a cultish aberration since it appeared on the scene in the 1530s. My point in saying all this: fair criticism is good, and evaluation of their doctrine is fine. But pop culture "knowledge" on this issue is pretty wide of the mark. Also: I'm not a Puritan. I just like history. :-)