7 ms·

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creatin

by anonu 8y ago

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Ghosn is innocent. He may very well have created special corporate structures to siphon off cash - and if he did, he certainly didn't do it alone. I think he regretted not taking the helm of GM where he saw US top execs easily earning $20, $30mm a year with no complaints from the public...

on_and_off 8y ago
>Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people This should have absolutely no bearing on how the justice system handles him.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dopamean 8y ago
  Seriously! I know it happens but I feel like it's rare to see someone seem to explicitly argue that someone's business success should be a mitigating factor when considering their crimes.
  - mc32 8y ago
    While not to this degree “mitigating circumstances” is a concept in law, so while I disagree with OP, it is a thing of sorts in some traditions of law.
    - on_and_off 8y ago
      That's not what mitigating circumstances are for AFAIK. Here are the examples given in a law dictionary : "a young man shoots his father after years of being beaten, belittled, sworn at and treated without love. "Heat of passion" or "diminished capacity" are forms of such mitigating circumstances" mitigating circumstances are conditions that explain and partially excuse a behavior. If anything, being a very wealthy exec that does not need money but still stealing would be an aggravating circumstance. However, if you look at prison terms, whether this person is a danger to society or not is a big factor. We could also talk a lot about imprisonment and whether it should be used as a punition or only as a way to protect society against some very limited cases of dangerous individuals.
mc32 8y ago
Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. Ghosn allegedly arranged this overt/covert payment system because allegedly he was unhappy that compared to euro and American auto execs, he was being under compensated. This scheme if true is unlawful. Euro and American auto execs get paid above board and since there is no need for dual streams (because if you can command 200 million and you can get it, you don’t have to be shamed about it.). In Japan it’s improper to be overcompensated but in order to be on par with other execs’ pay Ghosn arranged this overt/covert compensation system.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- djrogers 8y ago
  > Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. From the GP: >> Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.
- hedvig 8y ago
  Well let's roll part of that back because there is growing consensus that "if you can command 200 million and you can get it" you should be shamed.
  - mc32 8y ago
    There’s a difference between commanding tens of millions per on the open market and doing illegal things because you want to get around some limits. As I understand it Nissan paid him a handsome amount, he agreed to it, but apparently not enough so he set up subsidiaries in Europe and used those to buy personal properties. In the end he allegedly was reporting only half of the income he earned-only the above board income. It’s an altogether different discussion whether someone should be remunerated so generously.
2calazm 8y ago
Counter-argument: that's how most suspects are handled in Japan (sadly), but people care about it only now that it affects a rich westerner, as you comment demonstrates ("stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value").
mises 8y ago
At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy, and a good number of people are of the opinion it is simply an issue with their culture. This is why nation-building fails there. Japan is so to a lesser degree. They Westernized more due to losing WWII to America, but are still different. It's not our job to play world police.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  > For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy. This isn’t helped by foreign interference in every election they have. Even the borders, arbitrary lines drawn up by colonial powers, contribute to the problem as the forced groupings don’t suit anyone except for some colonial empire a long time ago. If the meddling stopped for a decent duration democracy might have a chance.
  - mises 8y ago
    Very true, though without such interference, the idea may never have arisen there.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Maybe, maybe not. Counter example. Bangladesh (where I’m from) was created in 1972 with a constitution embodying various western style principles, including secularism. The country was organized along pretty sensible geographic/linguistic/religious borders, and there has been no western meddling with its elections. Regardless, over the decades the people have voted to make Islam the official religion and generally cut back on secularism, free speech, and democracy. One of the relatively few bright spots is the Bangladesh Supreme Court—a western transplantation that e.g. conducts its business and issues opinions in English. Americans love to blame the west for everything. I find it fairly patronizing.
pm24601 8y ago
What Ghosn is experiencing is identical to what the US justice system inflicts on non-wealthy people. Poor people and even "middle class" cannot afford to be accused of a crime. It is incredibly, impossibly expensive to afford justice. In the US, it is far cheaper to accept a plea deal for a crime - even if innocent. Look at the US numbers for accused that actually "get their day in court". Nolo estimates over 90% of cases never go to trial (https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-criminal-cases-actually-go-trial.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-criminal-cases-a... ) This sounds remarkably close to the Japanese numbers.

by anonu 8y ago

on_and_off 8y ago

>Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people This should have absolutely no bearing on how the justice system handles him.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dopamean 8y ago
Seriously! I know it happens but I feel like it's rare to see someone seem to explicitly argue that someone's business success should be a mitigating factor when considering their crimes.
- mc32 8y ago
  While not to this degree “mitigating circumstances” is a concept in law, so while I disagree with OP, it is a thing of sorts in some traditions of law.
  - on_and_off 8y ago
    That's not what mitigating circumstances are for AFAIK. Here are the examples given in a law dictionary : "a young man shoots his father after years of being beaten, belittled, sworn at and treated without love. "Heat of passion" or "diminished capacity" are forms of such mitigating circumstances" mitigating circumstances are conditions that explain and partially excuse a behavior. If anything, being a very wealthy exec that does not need money but still stealing would be an aggravating circumstance. However, if you look at prison terms, whether this person is a danger to society or not is a big factor. We could also talk a lot about imprisonment and whether it should be used as a punition or only as a way to protect society against some very limited cases of dangerous individuals.

mc32 8y ago

Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. Ghosn allegedly arranged this overt/covert payment system because allegedly he was unhappy that compared to euro and American auto execs, he was being under compensated. This scheme if true is unlawful. Euro and American auto execs get paid above board and since there is no need for dual streams (because if you can command 200 million and you can get it, you don’t have to be shamed about it.). In Japan it’s improper to be overcompensated but in order to be on par with other execs’ pay Ghosn arranged this overt/covert compensation system.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
djrogers 8y ago
> Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. From the GP: >> Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.
hedvig 8y ago
Well let's roll part of that back because there is growing consensus that "if you can command 200 million and you can get it" you should be shamed.
- mc32 8y ago
  There’s a difference between commanding tens of millions per on the open market and doing illegal things because you want to get around some limits. As I understand it Nissan paid him a handsome amount, he agreed to it, but apparently not enough so he set up subsidiaries in Europe and used those to buy personal properties. In the end he allegedly was reporting only half of the income he earned-only the above board income. It’s an altogether different discussion whether someone should be remunerated so generously.

2calazm 8y ago

Counter-argument: that's how most suspects are handled in Japan (sadly), but people care about it only now that it affects a rich westerner, as you comment demonstrates ("stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value").

mises 8y ago

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy, and a good number of people are of the opinion it is simply an issue with their culture. This is why nation-building fails there. Japan is so to a lesser degree. They Westernized more due to losing WWII to America, but are still different. It's not our job to play world police.

lostlogin 8y ago
> For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy. This isn’t helped by foreign interference in every election they have. Even the borders, arbitrary lines drawn up by colonial powers, contribute to the problem as the forced groupings don’t suit anyone except for some colonial empire a long time ago. If the meddling stopped for a decent duration democracy might have a chance.
- mises 8y ago
  Very true, though without such interference, the idea may never have arisen there.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Maybe, maybe not. Counter example. Bangladesh (where I’m from) was created in 1972 with a constitution embodying various western style principles, including secularism. The country was organized along pretty sensible geographic/linguistic/religious borders, and there has been no western meddling with its elections. Regardless, over the decades the people have voted to make Islam the official religion and generally cut back on secularism, free speech, and democracy. One of the relatively few bright spots is the Bangladesh Supreme Court—a western transplantation that e.g. conducts its business and issues opinions in English. Americans love to blame the west for everything. I find it fairly patronizing.

pm24601 8y ago

What Ghosn is experiencing is identical to what the US justice system inflicts on non-wealthy people. Poor people and even "middle class" cannot afford to be accused of a crime. It is incredibly, impossibly expensive to afford justice. In the US, it is far cheaper to accept a plea deal for a crime - even if innocent. Look at the US numbers for accused that actually "get their day in court". Nolo estimates over 90% of cases never go to trial (https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-criminal-cases-actually-go-trial.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-criminal-cases-a... ) This sounds remarkably close to the Japanese numbers.