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Here is what the parent wrote: > and socioeconomic forces means that black people face systemic barriers to getting access to that education (versus whites, in

Here is what the parent wrote: > and socioeconomic forces means that black people face systemic barriers to getting access to that education (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) My contention is that the exact same socioeconomic forces exist across racial lines. There may be historical factors that vary by racial group, or sub-groups therein, but the problems are universal.

shawnz 8y ago
If I claim apples are red, that doesn't imply that apples are the only thing that is red. It's just a good example of a red thing.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  The parent quite literally wrote > (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) This is saying those problems don't exist for another group. You are either poorly trolling or unable to read.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    No, what they are saying is that those groups don't face inherent socioeconomic challenges simply due to being a part of that group, in the same way that for example black and Hispanic people do. That doesn't mean nobody else can face socioeconomic challenges.
    - mieseratte 8y ago
      What socioeconomic challenge, in this day and age, applies to American blacks but not American asians, whites, or any other group who are applying to university?
      - shawnz 8y ago
        Are you serious? What about the fact that American black and Hispanic families are disproportionately living in ghettos due to the barriers that have been purposefully imposed on them over the last century?
        mieseratte 8y ago
        You do realize that there are black people who do not live in the ghetto and whites who do, right? Being poor is not a problem exclusive to any given race. At the same time, rural Appalachian whites have faced comparable socioeconomic exploitation. The historical mechanics of exploitation may differ, but the affect and outcome is the same.
        shawnz 8y ago
        Like I said previously: Nobody is claiming that white people can't suffer from poverty. But no white American was ever forced into poverty solely on the basis of their being white. White people can face poverty but being white does not cause poverty. Similarly just because black Americans are disproportionately affected by poverty doesn't mean that every black American is poor.
        mieseratte 8y ago
        See, here is my problem. The parent post claimed that blacks, specifically, face classes of problems that no other group does when attempting university and that this is problematic because it may exclude non-traditional routes to learning "ethics" which in turn may exclude them from software jobs. My point of contention is that, in this day and age, these problems apply equally and to single out a race is wrong. I'm not debating the historical jackasseries of why various groups have arrived in disadvantaged positions, my contention is solely on casting modern socioeconomic barriers along racial lines. For whatever reason, you have seized on this while simultaneously removing any and all context and are attempting to paint me as claiming blacks haven't suffered / whites have based on race relations. This was never even a part of the conversation but you keep placing "points" in my mouth that I never made and then debating them. You're derailing the conversation.
tzs 8y ago
I can tell at a glance if you are black. I cannot tell at a glance if you are rural white. This is significant because white is the majority. It means that if I, as a member of the majority, wish to discriminate against those outside of the majority [1], it is easy for blacks. I can just avoid all of them. For whites who aren't the "right" kind of white, I can't just use a simple rule. I actually have to look into the background. Furthermore, you can try to hide that background from me, hoping I mistake you for the "right" kind of white. Maybe I'll eventually find out you aren't, but if you have proven yourself useful to me in the mean time maybe I'll overlook that. The black guy? He can't hide that from me, so he doesn't even get the chance to prove himself. [1] I don't, but the writing is more natural from the point of view of one who does, so I shall role play a bigot in this comment.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  > I can tell at a glance if you are black. I cannot tell at a glance if you are rural white. Sure, but that only works up until you open your mouth. I can tell poor-rural from wealthy-urban quickly. Out and out racism is still at some level a problem, but the parent comment specifically states there exist socioeconomic problems that exist only for blacks attempting university that do not exist for other groups. I would love to know what problems exist specifically for blacks attempting university that are specific to that one group. Having spent my youth in a place with a surprising amount of socioeconomic diversity I can tell you the wealth blacks had wholly different problems and outcomes than the poor ones did just like with the whites, and Hispanics. I couldn't tell you about other groups, we didn't seem to have any of them in the "poor" category. And while whites haven't exactly had historical problems in the workforce solely based on skin color, this isn't a rule. My father is a blue-collar worker in the construction industry, and during the Recession he lost his "good" job and ended up working on a crew entirely comprised of poor blacks. I spent my summers and breaks working with him, performing unskilled manual labor. While not the rule, there was absolute "us" vs. "them" bullshit racism coming from the majority group. This isn't a class of problem that is relegated to one particular group, and to pretend it does is simultaneously racist and patronizing.

shawnz 8y ago

If I claim apples are red, that doesn't imply that apples are the only thing that is red. It's just a good example of a red thing.

mieseratte 8y ago
The parent quite literally wrote > (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) This is saying those problems don't exist for another group. You are either poorly trolling or unable to read.
- shawnz 8y ago
  No, what they are saying is that those groups don't face inherent socioeconomic challenges simply due to being a part of that group, in the same way that for example black and Hispanic people do. That doesn't mean nobody else can face socioeconomic challenges.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    What socioeconomic challenge, in this day and age, applies to American blacks but not American asians, whites, or any other group who are applying to university?
    - shawnz 8y ago
      Are you serious? What about the fact that American black and Hispanic families are disproportionately living in ghettos due to the barriers that have been purposefully imposed on them over the last century?
      - mieseratte 8y ago
        You do realize that there are black people who do not live in the ghetto and whites who do, right? Being poor is not a problem exclusive to any given race. At the same time, rural Appalachian whites have faced comparable socioeconomic exploitation. The historical mechanics of exploitation may differ, but the affect and outcome is the same.
        shawnz 8y ago
        Like I said previously: Nobody is claiming that white people can't suffer from poverty. But no white American was ever forced into poverty solely on the basis of their being white. White people can face poverty but being white does not cause poverty. Similarly just because black Americans are disproportionately affected by poverty doesn't mean that every black American is poor.
        mieseratte 8y ago
        See, here is my problem. The parent post claimed that blacks, specifically, face classes of problems that no other group does when attempting university and that this is problematic because it may exclude non-traditional routes to learning "ethics" which in turn may exclude them from software jobs. My point of contention is that, in this day and age, these problems apply equally and to single out a race is wrong. I'm not debating the historical jackasseries of why various groups have arrived in disadvantaged positions, my contention is solely on casting modern socioeconomic barriers along racial lines. For whatever reason, you have seized on this while simultaneously removing any and all context and are attempting to paint me as claiming blacks haven't suffered / whites have based on race relations. This was never even a part of the conversation but you keep placing "points" in my mouth that I never made and then debating them. You're derailing the conversation.

tzs 8y ago

I can tell at a glance if you are black. I cannot tell at a glance if you are rural white. This is significant because white is the majority. It means that if I, as a member of the majority, wish to discriminate against those outside of the majority [1], it is easy for blacks. I can just avoid all of them. For whites who aren't the "right" kind of white, I can't just use a simple rule. I actually have to look into the background. Furthermore, you can try to hide that background from me, hoping I mistake you for the "right" kind of white. Maybe I'll eventually find out you aren't, but if you have proven yourself useful to me in the mean time maybe I'll overlook that. The black guy? He can't hide that from me, so he doesn't even get the chance to prove himself. [1] I don't, but the writing is more natural from the point of view of one who does, so I shall role play a bigot in this comment.

mieseratte 8y ago
> I can tell at a glance if you are black. I cannot tell at a glance if you are rural white. Sure, but that only works up until you open your mouth. I can tell poor-rural from wealthy-urban quickly. Out and out racism is still at some level a problem, but the parent comment specifically states there exist socioeconomic problems that exist only for blacks attempting university that do not exist for other groups. I would love to know what problems exist specifically for blacks attempting university that are specific to that one group. Having spent my youth in a place with a surprising amount of socioeconomic diversity I can tell you the wealth blacks had wholly different problems and outcomes than the poor ones did just like with the whites, and Hispanics. I couldn't tell you about other groups, we didn't seem to have any of them in the "poor" category. And while whites haven't exactly had historical problems in the workforce solely based on skin color, this isn't a rule. My father is a blue-collar worker in the construction industry, and during the Recession he lost his "good" job and ended up working on a crew entirely comprised of poor blacks. I spent my summers and breaks working with him, performing unskilled manual labor. While not the rule, there was absolute "us" vs. "them" bullshit racism coming from the majority group. This isn't a class of problem that is relegated to one particular group, and to pretend it does is simultaneously racist and patronizing.