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>The ROC and the PRC _are_ independent countries. You know that's not true. >They don't say they are, but clearly they are. So why don't they say that? >The

>The ROC and the PRC _are_ independent countries. You know that's not true. >They don't say they are, but clearly they are. So why don't they say that? >The PRC already basically (that qualifier probably isn't necessary) is an ally of the United States. And what is the United States' position on the independence of Taiwan? >It's dangerous double-speak and needs to stop. Sometimes language can reflect reality, and the reality is that Taiwan is quasi-independent.

CogitoCogito 8y ago
> You know that's not true. The PRC and the ROC have separate economies, militaries, governments, currencies. They engage in interational trade separately, organize telecommunications separately, they issue their own passports and they are recognized separately. The land controlled by the PRC and the land controlled by the ROC have been stable for 70 years. Those two landmasses have been united under one government for about 4 years in the last 125. To say that they are not two separate countries is totally delusional. > And what is the United States' position on the independence of Taiwan? What does that matter? The facts on the ground are that they are separate countries. The US position that the PRC wasn't a country in the 50s and 60s didn't magically make it the case. > Sometimes language can reflect reality, and the reality is that Taiwan is quasi-independent. You clearly don't live in reality.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  This is getting silly. You're being disingenuous and I don't know why. Everything you said is true, and yet you know that isn't the entire story. You know that Taiwan is special. It isn't like other sovereign states as it has no UN representation and is not recognized by the vast majority of states and it is claimed by PRC as its dependent. The political status of Taiwan is complicated (to put it mildly). The status quo is somewhat tolerated by all parties, but I wouldn't bet that you'll have another 70 years of it. As China grows into a superpower, I doubt Taiwan will be able to maintain whatever independence it has now - but we'll see. Your line of argument also doesn't actually address the original point, which is that China tolerates the independence of Hong Kong because it has its sights set on Taiwan - which is the real prize. From that perspective, it doesn't matter how Taiwan sees itself.
  - CogitoCogito 8y ago
    What you say is irrelevant. The PRC may annex the ROC someday (militarily or by other means), but that wouldn't change the fact that between 1949 and until that happens that there were two separate countries. The UN doesn't make countries it's just a forum that some governments are invited to be a part of. The political status of the ROC is just as simple as that as the PRC. To say otherwise is what actually is disingenuous. > Your line of argument also doesn't actually address the original point, which is that China tolerates the independence of Hong Kong because it has its sights set on Taiwan - which is the real prize. Yes taking over the ROC is the real prize because right now it is _independent_ and the PRC wants that to change. The mental somersaults you do to avoid saying this obvious truth is mind boggling. > From that perspective, it doesn't matter how Taiwan sees itself. This is true! The ROC claims the territories of the mainland as well as Mongolia in its constitution. This is delusional. Similarly the PRC claims the mainland and the ROC's territories as its own. This is also delusional. It matters how neither side officially sees themselves. They _are_ two separate countries. Why can't you just admit that the PRC has imperialistic ambitions and tries to make up justifications to make the PRC look like it is in the right? Why are you so hellbent to ignore reality?

CogitoCogito 8y ago

> You know that's not true. The PRC and the ROC have separate economies, militaries, governments, currencies. They engage in interational trade separately, organize telecommunications separately, they issue their own passports and they are recognized separately. The land controlled by the PRC and the land controlled by the ROC have been stable for 70 years. Those two landmasses have been united under one government for about 4 years in the last 125. To say that they are not two separate countries is totally delusional. > And what is the United States' position on the independence of Taiwan? What does that matter? The facts on the ground are that they are separate countries. The US position that the PRC wasn't a country in the 50s and 60s didn't magically make it the case. > Sometimes language can reflect reality, and the reality is that Taiwan is quasi-independent. You clearly don't live in reality.

macspoofing 8y ago
This is getting silly. You're being disingenuous and I don't know why. Everything you said is true, and yet you know that isn't the entire story. You know that Taiwan is special. It isn't like other sovereign states as it has no UN representation and is not recognized by the vast majority of states and it is claimed by PRC as its dependent. The political status of Taiwan is complicated (to put it mildly). The status quo is somewhat tolerated by all parties, but I wouldn't bet that you'll have another 70 years of it. As China grows into a superpower, I doubt Taiwan will be able to maintain whatever independence it has now - but we'll see. Your line of argument also doesn't actually address the original point, which is that China tolerates the independence of Hong Kong because it has its sights set on Taiwan - which is the real prize. From that perspective, it doesn't matter how Taiwan sees itself.
- CogitoCogito 8y ago
  What you say is irrelevant. The PRC may annex the ROC someday (militarily or by other means), but that wouldn't change the fact that between 1949 and until that happens that there were two separate countries. The UN doesn't make countries it's just a forum that some governments are invited to be a part of. The political status of the ROC is just as simple as that as the PRC. To say otherwise is what actually is disingenuous. > Your line of argument also doesn't actually address the original point, which is that China tolerates the independence of Hong Kong because it has its sights set on Taiwan - which is the real prize. Yes taking over the ROC is the real prize because right now it is _independent_ and the PRC wants that to change. The mental somersaults you do to avoid saying this obvious truth is mind boggling. > From that perspective, it doesn't matter how Taiwan sees itself. This is true! The ROC claims the territories of the mainland as well as Mongolia in its constitution. This is delusional. Similarly the PRC claims the mainland and the ROC's territories as its own. This is also delusional. It matters how neither side officially sees themselves. They _are_ two separate countries. Why can't you just admit that the PRC has imperialistic ambitions and tries to make up justifications to make the PRC look like it is in the right? Why are you so hellbent to ignore reality?