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These things happen all the time in real world free unregulated markets. The seller looks at you, tries to understand how much you can afford and what are your

These things happen all the time in real world free unregulated markets. The seller looks at you, tries to understand how much you can afford and what are your alternatives right then, and to get the highest price possible. If you are desperate and your life is at risk, they can literally strip you naked - just see how many unscrupulous people become rich during wars. When you are in a medical emergency, and you need a treatment right there and right then - no time to shop around - why should an unregulated, shareholder value maximising business, not extract from you as much as you can afford?

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Find me a loosely regulated market where prices fluctuate on the same order magnitude as they do in medical. Gouging related to temporary situations is a laughable comparison.
- danmaz74 7y ago
  Find me another market where people need to urgently make choices that affect their life and death, or that of their loved ones. The comparison isn't laughable at all.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    That herring is so red it may as well be a cooked lobster. The overwhelming majority of medical care is not urgent care. The overwhelming majority of medical costs are costs that can be foreseen long enough in advance to shop around. Even if you think you might have skin cancer you're still in a position to choose where you go to get your tests.
    - empath75 7y ago
      Hospitals won’t tell you the costs of treatment ahead of time, even for easily predictable items like baby delivery. It’s impossible to shop around. https://youtu.be/Tct38KwROdw https://youtu.be/Tct38KwROdw
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        Yes. And that's exactly the problem I'm complaining about and challenging you to find an example of in a loosely regulated market.
        empath75 7y ago
        There’s no regulations preventing them from quoting prices to you.
        dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        There's regulations that prevent them from being undercut by entities that are willing to have transparent pricing. The problem here is not lack of regulation. It is a lack of competition. Regulation forces providers to adopt a particular business model and that model allows the kind of pricing shenanigans we see. At the end of the day everything comes down to dollars and a lack of pricing information means it is not possible to compare like services across providers. Being able to compare supposedly interchangeable goods/services is a core part of the free market and it is missing from healthcare in the US.
anonuser123456 7y ago
>When you are in a medical emergency, and you need a treatment right there and right then - no time to shop around - why should an unregulated, shareholder value maximising business, not extract from you as much as you can afford? In a free market, you'd also have choice via competition to drive that price down. Right now, hospitals can literally veto their competition by claiming "there isn't enough demand to justify another hospital in this area". So bing, no new hospital, no competition. And of course, this assumes your provider is out to screw you at every turn. This turns out to not be the case for obvious reasons; your provider still wants your business in the future. In the case of a single hospital/provider (a la regulation) they've got your business no matter what. Competition is a key force in markets, and regulation in the medical industry provides huge barriers to competition.
- dragonsngoblins 7y ago
  > In a free market, you'd also have choice via competition to drive that price down Not really though. Like, if I am having a heart attack the correct answer to "Which hospital do I go to?" is always going to be "The closest one equipped to handle it". Well technically the one I get can to the fastest that can handle it but you see my point. This kind of choice via competition would work for things like optometrists and GPs (assuming you live in an area with more than one general practice) but just plain doesn't for emergencies.
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    Yeah, the moment you have a heart attack is not the time to start comparison shop. This is the argument everyone always brings up all the time, because it's so obvious. An because it's so obvious, people will want to be prepared for it. By having insurance (real insurance, not the bizarre "health insurance" construct we have today), or subscribing to some service like you do for when you car breaks down etc. I'm not sure what exactly would happen, but I'm certain it won't be that people will just never think about this until they all, one by one, have a medical emergency and have to unexpectedly pick a hospital on the spot.
    - 7y ago
BurningFrog 7y ago
> These things happen all the time in real world free unregulated markets. The seller looks at you, tries to understand how much you can afford and what are your alternatives right then, and to get the highest price possible. But that is not at all what I'm asking about. You clearly didn't read the post I commented on. If my basement is flooding and I sound rich and dumb to the plumber I call, I might get quoted triple the price of one of his regular customers, sure. But there won't be a Plumbing Benefit Manager company as a middle man that has a "negotiated special hourly $800 rate" with the plumber so I don't have to pay the "official $9340 rate". That sort of complex plunder reeks of regulation to me. I can't imagine how it arises. Which is why I asked.
- danmaz74 7y ago
  So what looks bad to you isn't the fact that a medical company will try to get all your money when you're most vulnerable, but the fact that they need to resort to a middle man to be able to do that in the face of regulation? Cool.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

Find me a loosely regulated market where prices fluctuate on the same order magnitude as they do in medical. Gouging related to temporary situations is a laughable comparison.

danmaz74 7y ago
Find me another market where people need to urgently make choices that affect their life and death, or that of their loved ones. The comparison isn't laughable at all.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  That herring is so red it may as well be a cooked lobster. The overwhelming majority of medical care is not urgent care. The overwhelming majority of medical costs are costs that can be foreseen long enough in advance to shop around. Even if you think you might have skin cancer you're still in a position to choose where you go to get your tests.
  - empath75 7y ago
    Hospitals won’t tell you the costs of treatment ahead of time, even for easily predictable items like baby delivery. It’s impossible to shop around. https://youtu.be/Tct38KwROdw https://youtu.be/Tct38KwROdw
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Yes. And that's exactly the problem I'm complaining about and challenging you to find an example of in a loosely regulated market.
      - empath75 7y ago
        There’s no regulations preventing them from quoting prices to you.
        dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        There's regulations that prevent them from being undercut by entities that are willing to have transparent pricing. The problem here is not lack of regulation. It is a lack of competition. Regulation forces providers to adopt a particular business model and that model allows the kind of pricing shenanigans we see. At the end of the day everything comes down to dollars and a lack of pricing information means it is not possible to compare like services across providers. Being able to compare supposedly interchangeable goods/services is a core part of the free market and it is missing from healthcare in the US.

anonuser123456 7y ago

>When you are in a medical emergency, and you need a treatment right there and right then - no time to shop around - why should an unregulated, shareholder value maximising business, not extract from you as much as you can afford? In a free market, you'd also have choice via competition to drive that price down. Right now, hospitals can literally veto their competition by claiming "there isn't enough demand to justify another hospital in this area". So bing, no new hospital, no competition. And of course, this assumes your provider is out to screw you at every turn. This turns out to not be the case for obvious reasons; your provider still wants your business in the future. In the case of a single hospital/provider (a la regulation) they've got your business no matter what. Competition is a key force in markets, and regulation in the medical industry provides huge barriers to competition.

dragonsngoblins 7y ago
> In a free market, you'd also have choice via competition to drive that price down Not really though. Like, if I am having a heart attack the correct answer to "Which hospital do I go to?" is always going to be "The closest one equipped to handle it". Well technically the one I get can to the fastest that can handle it but you see my point. This kind of choice via competition would work for things like optometrists and GPs (assuming you live in an area with more than one general practice) but just plain doesn't for emergencies.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  Yeah, the moment you have a heart attack is not the time to start comparison shop. This is the argument everyone always brings up all the time, because it's so obvious. An because it's so obvious, people will want to be prepared for it. By having insurance (real insurance, not the bizarre "health insurance" construct we have today), or subscribing to some service like you do for when you car breaks down etc. I'm not sure what exactly would happen, but I'm certain it won't be that people will just never think about this until they all, one by one, have a medical emergency and have to unexpectedly pick a hospital on the spot.
  - 7y ago

BurningFrog 7y ago

> These things happen all the time in real world free unregulated markets. The seller looks at you, tries to understand how much you can afford and what are your alternatives right then, and to get the highest price possible. But that is not at all what I'm asking about. You clearly didn't read the post I commented on. If my basement is flooding and I sound rich and dumb to the plumber I call, I might get quoted triple the price of one of his regular customers, sure. But there won't be a Plumbing Benefit Manager company as a middle man that has a "negotiated special hourly $800 rate" with the plumber so I don't have to pay the "official $9340 rate". That sort of complex plunder reeks of regulation to me. I can't imagine how it arises. Which is why I asked.

danmaz74 7y ago
So what looks bad to you isn't the fact that a medical company will try to get all your money when you're most vulnerable, but the fact that they need to resort to a middle man to be able to do that in the face of regulation? Cool.