9 ms·

I Dream of Canteens

90 points by secondary 7y ago

andbberger 7y ago
Sign me up. Cooperative living (very much in the same vein) sustained me through college. 'adulthood' is comparatively extremely isolating. Where is one supposed to find a tribe, in a city, in this day and age?
- hinkley 7y ago
  You have to get off the computer and go outside. Hobbies are a good way to meet people. Volunteer work is better.
  - andbberger 7y ago
    That was a rhetorical question. > You have to get off the computer and go outside. That has nothing to do with it. The kinds of institutions I want to be part of don't really exist in the US
    - bgutierrez 7y ago
      What institutions are you thinking of?
      - Kluny 7y ago
        How about a place where you can go to get food and socialize with people without being required to buy something? A bar, but for those who don't want to drink. A coffee shop for those who don't want to pay 3 dollars for burned coffee. A library where you're allowed to eat. A park where it's okay to hang out and talk to strangers even if you're an adult and don't have a kid or dog with you.
        msla 7y ago
        An enclosed city park, in other words, only magically without creeps and assholes?
        stronglikedan 7y ago
        I've never been to a bar where I was required to buy something.
        blairbeckwith 7y ago
        Maybe you haven’t been to a bar that has kicked you out for not buying something, but you have certainly been to a bar that wishes you weren’t there not buying stuff. If you think you haven’t, well...
        stronglikedan 7y ago
        Except that's not what we're talking about, and even if it were, who cares what they wish - I'm there to socialize with friends, not employees.
        andbberger 7y ago
        How about it! Sounds good to me
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - andbberger 7y ago
        Cooperatives of all kind. Housing. Work. Canteens. Warm and welcoming places that invite all to step in from the cold and stay awhile. Housing coops and canteens exist but are not common. Worker coops on the other hand... I sincerely believe that a well-organized tech worker coop would eat the world. The incentives are fundamentally misaligned for the average worker in the modern corporation. I'm well aware that I'm getting taking advantage of everyday when I show up to work, and that sets a pretty low upper bound on the amount of fucks I give about someone else's corporation. 'disrupt' that and you'll be unstoppable.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      Maybe try somewhere else, then -- perhaps volunteer on a kibbutz, and see if that's what you're looking for?
    - dyeje 7y ago
      Curious what institutions you're referring to, could you list some examples?
- kaffeemitsahne 7y ago
  A bit baffled by the negative reactions you're getting, just wanted to say that I agree with this sentiment.
- RandallBrown 7y ago
  I have not had any difficulty finding a "tribe" as an adult in a big city. Intramural sports, meetup groups, work, bars, gyms, etc. all work very well.
- awad 7y ago
  WeWork is also pushing a WeLive concept that is essentially this. Anecdotally, I'm aware of a more grassroots-style of living in San Francisco wherein groups of 12-60 people live as a community in older, larger buildings (The Red Vic, Negev, Campus Coliving). It's not for everyone but certainly fills a niche.
- archagon 7y ago
  Same boat for me: co-op living in college has infected me with a longing for community. Russia (and Europe to some extent) has a movement of anti-cafes, which are communal spaces that you pay a bit per hour to inhabit. Come to work, play board games, read, or just hang out. Coffee is often provided for cheap. We could use these in the US. I guess hackerspaces may come close in spirit, but I’ve never been.
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    I've seen a couple in Montreal but don't know about their current status
sansnomme 7y ago
To be fair, most Asian cities have stuff like this. It never caught on in the west due to cultural and political reasons e.g. urban planning in western nations are designed with cars as the preferred mode of transport and most housing densities are several magnitudes lower than places like Hong Kong, Tokyo and Singapore. Just two days ago HN was lamenting about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19769292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19769292 Other than urban planning, the abundance of street food and lack of tipping culture in Asia also probably helps.
benzene 7y ago
I think the closest analogue to this in the US is a mall food court. Many vendors instead of one, but similarly to the canteen, provides an open communal space with varied seating options. Of additional note: cheap, fast food (think McDonalds) is ubiquitous but low in nutrition - healthier canteen style is up against stronger competition than the WWII-era British Restaurant
- js2 7y ago
  Mall food courts are pretty awful in my experience. We’re starting to get upscale food courts that don’t like to call themselves food courts. But the prices, while better than sit down dining, aren’t cheap. The food is much better though. Here’s an example in Raleigh: http://www.morganfoodhall.com/ http://www.morganfoodhall.com/ (“Morgan Street Food Hall is a new lifestyle dining concept; not to be confused with a food court.” Ugh I almost didn’t visit the place since the web site is so fucking pretentious.) I first visited one of these in Chicago. My preference is a city park surrounded by food trucks. But these aren’t reliable, only work when the weather is good, etc.
- ska 7y ago
  Food courts have really suffered from the mentality of corporate mall management; contracts with large chains of even 2nd or 3rd tier fast-food operations are preferred over local options and small operations. This make the B2B stuff easier, as many malls are owned my massive groups that run even dozens of malls - and they can make a contract with a large franchise operation to cover many/all of them (or a restaurant group that can provide different options). They also don't have to worry about risk on the rent much. Notice how food quality etc. didn't show up in previous para?
rfwhyte 7y ago
As someone who loathes the pretense, attitudes, and money-grubbing of so called "Fine-dining" I've long dreamed of the emergence of canteen style dining in the western world. Where I live, every new restaurant is more expensive than the last, with average entrees easily topping $20 in mid-market establishments, and $30+ being incredibly common. Prices are so astronomically high, as establishments are now primarily competing on "experience," meaning they're spending huge sums on fancy architecture and furnishings, drastically increasing their cost bases. Since they spent so much just to get the place up and running, you're subjected to constant up/cross selling, ludicrously overpriced drinks, and the pervasive sense that if you can't afford to eat there without caring how much you're spending, you don't really "belong" there. I would love for nothing more than a basic, no-frills establishment that serves simple, healthy food, counter-service style so I don't have to deal with uppity yet somehow obsequious servers grubbing for tips, as I'm more than happy to bring my own damn food to my own damn table and am more than capable of filling a water glass when I'm thirsty. I'd much rather save money, enjoy my meal in peace and put my dishes in a bin on my way out than deal with the conspicuous consumption as a performance that so much of dining out has become these days.
- duxup 7y ago
  Aside from healthy (that is going to vary) it sounds like what you're describing could be what is called "fast casual" in the US.
- cbsks 7y ago
  Some colleges will allow non-students to buy individual meals, or even meal plans, at their dining halls which are usually as you describe. Mall food courts also have a similar experience.
  - vkou 7y ago
    In my experience, ~85-95% of mall food court food is terrible. Unless you work next to the food court, and take the time to figure out what's good, your average stop at one will result in disappointment.
keeganjw 7y ago
I dreamed of opening up a vegetarian canteen style restaurant. A place that serves cheap, nutritious, and delicious food and where people from all classes and walks of life could sit down for a meal. I've thinking about making a vegetarian restaurant that doesn't advertise itself as such. All the food should be delicious no matter what, not delicious for being vegetarian. It should take people a minute to realize that there is no meat in any of the dishes. I wonder how that would do in the United States.
- galago 7y ago
  https://www.yelp.com/biz/ganesh-temple-canteen-flushing https://www.yelp.com/biz/ganesh-temple-canteen-flushing Last year I was in Flushing, Queens NYC and visited this basement canteen. It had the desired features mentioned in the article. I'm not South-Asian, but I didn't feel at all unwelcome. It was raining that day, and I sat and drank tea for a little while to wait for the rain to shop. Cheap, decent food. Plenty of seating.
  - keeganjw 7y ago
    Wow, dang, that looks good!
- L_Rahman 7y ago
  As galago mentioned, the Ganesh Temple Canteen in NY is a beloved institution in the city and popular with people of all backgrounds.
- dkarl 7y ago
  I don't know if you could solve the problem of serving food that feels welcoming to "all classes and walks of life." The level of comfort with different flavor profiles is not exactly independent of class and background. The "cosmopolitan elite" (for lack of a better term) is self-conscious about seeking out new foods and flavor profiles; it's part of the class expectations they live up to. People from other classes and backgrounds often live up to different expectations, such as rejecting unfamiliar flavors and ingredients. Forcing people to embrace the risk of encountering an unfamiliar flavor profile is forcing them to adopt the mores of the privileged classes. I wonder how that would do in the United States. I think the time is better than ever for that kind of restaurant. People have mostly accepted the culinary necessity and dietary acceptability of salt and oil, so the forced dichotomy between the ethnic vegetarian restaurants and the insufferably bland ones is a relic of the past.
razius 7y ago
This is strange to me, canteens are very common in Eastern Europe and I assumed they exist everywhere, I'm guessing it's due to the cooking styles, we do a lot of soups and stews which are perfect for this.
dkarl 7y ago
I can't imagine the politics of figuring out what kind of food to serve. In the U.S., Democrats would add quinoa vegetable stew when they came into power, and the Republicans would proudly ban it and replace it with cheesy beef and mac. The Republicans would ban imported food, the Democrats would ban GMOs. The Democrats would mandate a complete vegetarian option, the Republicans would counter by mandating a minimum of 50g of protein per meal, including breakfast and lunch. Republicans would race-bait over ethnic food, and some tone-deaf centrist Democrat would propose "American" names for "foreign" food, like "chips and cheese" instead of "nachos," to make things less "confusing" for those salt-of-the-earth flyover morons, thus offending both sides, which is the closest thing to unity we ever experience. Maybe having this to fight about would distract some of our stupidity from real policy questions. That could be a win. > Unlike in Homer’s Odyssey, there will be no massacre if people stay longer than they should or have more free refills than is calculated to be ideal. This is funny but also grossly unfair to Odysseus and Telemachus.
- panzagl 7y ago
  There is a lot of politics involved in school cafeteria lunches- nutrition, allergies, religious restrictions, quality, cost, big food conspirists and lobbyists and whatever nutrition fad is current all have proponents who are perfectly willing to tie up school board meetings and otherwise push their agenda to the best of their ability. I'd have to think any gov't based approach would attract similar.
- noxToken 7y ago
  Maybe I missed this, but where do politics play a role in this idea? I could see if these were gov't run/funded places, but these could thrive alone via private business just as many restaurants do. Both parties could exist alongside each other.
  - dkarl 7y ago
    there are no public canteens in the city (what council could now afford to hang on to such a quantity of land after cuts?) After the war Conservatives dismissed them in parliament because they weren’t making profit. The canteens were allowed to decline, then disappear. Where I live, and apparently where the author lives, there's no way they could survive without government support, because they don't extract as much money from the space as other styles of restaurant do. The restaurant business is very tough, even without serving affordable food to all classes and providing ample space for lingering.
bluedino 7y ago
What's different between this and a buffet?
- panzagl 7y ago
  I guess London doesn't have the equivalent of Golden Corral or Old Country Buffet, or a decent diner now that I think of it. I wonder if she moved to English equivalent of the burbs there would be something more inviting.
- chickenfries 7y ago
  You usually serve yourself at a buffet, and it’s usually from one vendor. A canteen like this could have multiple vendors. A buffet is also usually “all you can eat” and priced to account for that.
solatic 7y ago
The author is nostalgic for something that can theoretically exist, but is very debatable whether it can exist at scale. The military has canteens. Leaving the budget per meal per soldier aside, there is inherent difficulty to providing food for hundreds of thousands of people within a short period, and to providing such food at a relatively consistent level of quality. Most organizations tasked with providing such a large quantity of food over a short period of time resort to outsourcing supply to food service companies which generally provide processed food which is either frozen or shelf-stable. Fresh produce is difficult and "healthy and delicious" is practically a pipe dream. There is a way to deal with this - hire an educated chef who can nurture relationships with many local farmers to negotiate supply, and actively manage the kitchen to make the best of the locally-sourced supply, not waste any of it, and put out a variety of dishes that, while not consistent in their contents from day-to-day, are consistently delicious. This is what Patrick Wodni [1] does for a Berlin hospital, but he's an exception because he was willing to take a large pay cut to work there. How many Patrick Wodnis are out there, for how many canteens would we need? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/world/europe/germany-chef-hospital-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/world/europe/germany-chef...
- gambiting 7y ago
  Poland still has "Milk bars"(Bar mleczny) which were the staple of dining during the communist times - they served mostly food based on milk and flour(hence the name) - pancakes with cheese, pierogi(many different fillings), different soups......they were extremely cheap and also pretty good. And....they still exist today. Krakow has one literally right in the city centre, next to the most premium of premium estates, where a restaurant literally right next door will have "western" levels of pricing, and yet they continue to serve simple, basic food for ~$1-3 per portion[0]. Granted, a lot of them closed after the fall of communism 20 years ago, but equally they still exist and still continue serving people. They are not just a tourist curio either - they are the place to go for students and workers. [0] https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g274772-d2693216-Reviews-Bar_Mleczny-Krakow_Lesser_Poland_Province_Southern_Poland.html#photos;aggregationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=63142217 https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g274772-d269...
tomcam 7y ago
I am a "high net worth individual" with a large second house in a leafy Seattle suburb. I use this house solely as an office, where I work by myself. The room I work in most often overlooks a forested area. But I like to get out sometimes. One of the great pleasures of my workday is eating at the local McDonalds, which is clean, run by nice people, and elegantly designed with plenty of natural light. They allow me to stay and use their free wifi for a couple hours if I wish. They have never even suggested that I leave, even after a marathon 3 hour visit. As a person who grew up not rich in a not safe place, I continue to be amazed such a thing is possible. My go-to meal is two cheeseburgers (substitute white cheddar) and unlimited fountain drinks for under USD$3.50, so I'm probably good for a few hundred bucks a year to them. Not exactly a prime customer. For whatever reason, maybe because I get jacked up on 3 diet cokes by the end of a long visit, it's a fantastic place for me to learn challenging material. I bring a big iPad and a $20 Bluetooth keyboard/iPad stand, then study my ass off and take notes in vim. I am under huge stress lately, and having to absorb a massive amount of technical literature fast while I undertake rewriting a running, production site with a very tight deadline. Don't think I'm not thankful for the opportunity every time it happens. It's a huge privilege IMHO.
- WilliamEdward 7y ago
  You're basically living my dream. How'd you make it happen?
  - tomcam 7y ago
    I am truly blessed. I bought a business on eBay during the .com crash of 2000 (esnipe.com) and turned it into a moneymaker. From there I am gone into investment in domain names and real estate. I’ve also failed a lot, like the time when I spent $1,400,000 of my own money trying to beat craigslist.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - rograndom 7y ago
PeanutNore 7y ago
I eat at the IKEA canteen all the time. It's a treasure.
forkandwait 7y ago
I hated Panda Express when I lived urban California and there were 1000s of small Chinese canteens, but now I go twice a week. If they had real China (hehe) I would eat there more often, but I just get to go.
prmph 7y ago
Is Panera Bread in the US not such an establishment? good coffee and tea, plenty of seating of various forms in various nooks, self bussing, etc. I loved to lose myself there doing remote work when I was in US
starpilot 7y ago
I see a lot of comparisons to things that are nothing like canteens, possibly because most Americans have never been to one (Ikea food court is the closest thing). Canteens (stolovaya) are alive and well in Russia. Here's how the line-up looks: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg Here's what your tray might look like at the end: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/photo0jpg.jpg https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/... You get charged per item, so it's higher quality than AYCE buffet. There's tons of variety, and you get to see your food before you purchase it. The closest thing I've seen in the US might be Bakeman's restaurant in Seattle, but it was sandwich-focused. The combination of hearty food with a plethora of options and minimal service is not something I've seen in the US. Some college cafeterias or museum dining areas are similar, but usually with less variety.
moltar 7y ago
I love canteens. In Ukraine they have proper canteen chains with good local food. Very cheap and delicious. Just love it. I’ll take that over a proper restaurant any day.
esotericn 7y ago
I agree. It's mind-bendingly frustrating to me that eating out in the UK seems to be a fundamentally unhealthy affair. I just want meat and two veg, a curry without a wad of oil, spaghetti bolognese, whatever. A standard staple meal without a ton of additives or other weirdness. If anyone knows of places like this in London I'm all ears. The best I can think of right now is IKEA food court which isn't the healthiest and isn't next to anything else. Basically anywhere I can think of serves bastardizations of real food. Polish milk bars, as stated below, are the only time I think I've ever eaten real food outside of a private home.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  In Edinburgh the central mosque had (still has) a pretty legendary canteen

90 points by secondary 7y ago

Sign me up. Cooperative living (very much in the same vein) sustained me through college. 'adulthood' is comparatively extremely isolating. Where is one supposed to find a tribe, in a city, in this day and age?

hinkley 7y ago
You have to get off the computer and go outside. Hobbies are a good way to meet people. Volunteer work is better.
- andbberger 7y ago
  That was a rhetorical question. > You have to get off the computer and go outside. That has nothing to do with it. The kinds of institutions I want to be part of don't really exist in the US
  - bgutierrez 7y ago
    What institutions are you thinking of?
    - Kluny 7y ago
      How about a place where you can go to get food and socialize with people without being required to buy something? A bar, but for those who don't want to drink. A coffee shop for those who don't want to pay 3 dollars for burned coffee. A library where you're allowed to eat. A park where it's okay to hang out and talk to strangers even if you're an adult and don't have a kid or dog with you.
      - msla 7y ago
        An enclosed city park, in other words, only magically without creeps and assholes?
      - stronglikedan 7y ago
        I've never been to a bar where I was required to buy something.
        blairbeckwith 7y ago
        Maybe you haven’t been to a bar that has kicked you out for not buying something, but you have certainly been to a bar that wishes you weren’t there not buying stuff. If you think you haven’t, well...
        stronglikedan 7y ago
        Except that's not what we're talking about, and even if it were, who cares what they wish - I'm there to socialize with friends, not employees.
      - andbberger 7y ago
        How about it! Sounds good to me
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - andbberger 7y ago
      Cooperatives of all kind. Housing. Work. Canteens. Warm and welcoming places that invite all to step in from the cold and stay awhile. Housing coops and canteens exist but are not common. Worker coops on the other hand... I sincerely believe that a well-organized tech worker coop would eat the world. The incentives are fundamentally misaligned for the average worker in the modern corporation. I'm well aware that I'm getting taking advantage of everyday when I show up to work, and that sets a pretty low upper bound on the amount of fucks I give about someone else's corporation. 'disrupt' that and you'll be unstoppable.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    Maybe try somewhere else, then -- perhaps volunteer on a kibbutz, and see if that's what you're looking for?
  - dyeje 7y ago
    Curious what institutions you're referring to, could you list some examples?
kaffeemitsahne 7y ago
A bit baffled by the negative reactions you're getting, just wanted to say that I agree with this sentiment.
RandallBrown 7y ago
I have not had any difficulty finding a "tribe" as an adult in a big city. Intramural sports, meetup groups, work, bars, gyms, etc. all work very well.
awad 7y ago
WeWork is also pushing a WeLive concept that is essentially this. Anecdotally, I'm aware of a more grassroots-style of living in San Francisco wherein groups of 12-60 people live as a community in older, larger buildings (The Red Vic, Negev, Campus Coliving). It's not for everyone but certainly fills a niche.
archagon 7y ago
Same boat for me: co-op living in college has infected me with a longing for community. Russia (and Europe to some extent) has a movement of anti-cafes, which are communal spaces that you pay a bit per hour to inhabit. Come to work, play board games, read, or just hang out. Coffee is often provided for cheap. We could use these in the US. I guess hackerspaces may come close in spirit, but I’ve never been.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  I've seen a couple in Montreal but don't know about their current status

sansnomme 7y ago

To be fair, most Asian cities have stuff like this. It never caught on in the west due to cultural and political reasons e.g. urban planning in western nations are designed with cars as the preferred mode of transport and most housing densities are several magnitudes lower than places like Hong Kong, Tokyo and Singapore. Just two days ago HN was lamenting about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19769292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19769292 Other than urban planning, the abundance of street food and lack of tipping culture in Asia also probably helps.

benzene 7y ago

I think the closest analogue to this in the US is a mall food court. Many vendors instead of one, but similarly to the canteen, provides an open communal space with varied seating options. Of additional note: cheap, fast food (think McDonalds) is ubiquitous but low in nutrition - healthier canteen style is up against stronger competition than the WWII-era British Restaurant

js2 7y ago
Mall food courts are pretty awful in my experience. We’re starting to get upscale food courts that don’t like to call themselves food courts. But the prices, while better than sit down dining, aren’t cheap. The food is much better though. Here’s an example in Raleigh: http://www.morganfoodhall.com/ http://www.morganfoodhall.com/ (“Morgan Street Food Hall is a new lifestyle dining concept; not to be confused with a food court.” Ugh I almost didn’t visit the place since the web site is so fucking pretentious.) I first visited one of these in Chicago. My preference is a city park surrounded by food trucks. But these aren’t reliable, only work when the weather is good, etc.
ska 7y ago
Food courts have really suffered from the mentality of corporate mall management; contracts with large chains of even 2nd or 3rd tier fast-food operations are preferred over local options and small operations. This make the B2B stuff easier, as many malls are owned my massive groups that run even dozens of malls - and they can make a contract with a large franchise operation to cover many/all of them (or a restaurant group that can provide different options). They also don't have to worry about risk on the rent much. Notice how food quality etc. didn't show up in previous para?

rfwhyte 7y ago

As someone who loathes the pretense, attitudes, and money-grubbing of so called "Fine-dining" I've long dreamed of the emergence of canteen style dining in the western world. Where I live, every new restaurant is more expensive than the last, with average entrees easily topping $20 in mid-market establishments, and $30+ being incredibly common. Prices are so astronomically high, as establishments are now primarily competing on "experience," meaning they're spending huge sums on fancy architecture and furnishings, drastically increasing their cost bases. Since they spent so much just to get the place up and running, you're subjected to constant up/cross selling, ludicrously overpriced drinks, and the pervasive sense that if you can't afford to eat there without caring how much you're spending, you don't really "belong" there. I would love for nothing more than a basic, no-frills establishment that serves simple, healthy food, counter-service style so I don't have to deal with uppity yet somehow obsequious servers grubbing for tips, as I'm more than happy to bring my own damn food to my own damn table and am more than capable of filling a water glass when I'm thirsty. I'd much rather save money, enjoy my meal in peace and put my dishes in a bin on my way out than deal with the conspicuous consumption as a performance that so much of dining out has become these days.

duxup 7y ago
Aside from healthy (that is going to vary) it sounds like what you're describing could be what is called "fast casual" in the US.
cbsks 7y ago
Some colleges will allow non-students to buy individual meals, or even meal plans, at their dining halls which are usually as you describe. Mall food courts also have a similar experience.
- vkou 7y ago
  In my experience, ~85-95% of mall food court food is terrible. Unless you work next to the food court, and take the time to figure out what's good, your average stop at one will result in disappointment.

keeganjw 7y ago

I dreamed of opening up a vegetarian canteen style restaurant. A place that serves cheap, nutritious, and delicious food and where people from all classes and walks of life could sit down for a meal. I've thinking about making a vegetarian restaurant that doesn't advertise itself as such. All the food should be delicious no matter what, not delicious for being vegetarian. It should take people a minute to realize that there is no meat in any of the dishes. I wonder how that would do in the United States.

galago 7y ago
https://www.yelp.com/biz/ganesh-temple-canteen-flushing https://www.yelp.com/biz/ganesh-temple-canteen-flushing Last year I was in Flushing, Queens NYC and visited this basement canteen. It had the desired features mentioned in the article. I'm not South-Asian, but I didn't feel at all unwelcome. It was raining that day, and I sat and drank tea for a little while to wait for the rain to shop. Cheap, decent food. Plenty of seating.
- keeganjw 7y ago
  Wow, dang, that looks good!
L_Rahman 7y ago
As galago mentioned, the Ganesh Temple Canteen in NY is a beloved institution in the city and popular with people of all backgrounds.
dkarl 7y ago
I don't know if you could solve the problem of serving food that feels welcoming to "all classes and walks of life." The level of comfort with different flavor profiles is not exactly independent of class and background. The "cosmopolitan elite" (for lack of a better term) is self-conscious about seeking out new foods and flavor profiles; it's part of the class expectations they live up to. People from other classes and backgrounds often live up to different expectations, such as rejecting unfamiliar flavors and ingredients. Forcing people to embrace the risk of encountering an unfamiliar flavor profile is forcing them to adopt the mores of the privileged classes. I wonder how that would do in the United States. I think the time is better than ever for that kind of restaurant. People have mostly accepted the culinary necessity and dietary acceptability of salt and oil, so the forced dichotomy between the ethnic vegetarian restaurants and the insufferably bland ones is a relic of the past.

razius 7y ago

This is strange to me, canteens are very common in Eastern Europe and I assumed they exist everywhere, I'm guessing it's due to the cooking styles, we do a lot of soups and stews which are perfect for this.

dkarl 7y ago

I can't imagine the politics of figuring out what kind of food to serve. In the U.S., Democrats would add quinoa vegetable stew when they came into power, and the Republicans would proudly ban it and replace it with cheesy beef and mac. The Republicans would ban imported food, the Democrats would ban GMOs. The Democrats would mandate a complete vegetarian option, the Republicans would counter by mandating a minimum of 50g of protein per meal, including breakfast and lunch. Republicans would race-bait over ethnic food, and some tone-deaf centrist Democrat would propose "American" names for "foreign" food, like "chips and cheese" instead of "nachos," to make things less "confusing" for those salt-of-the-earth flyover morons, thus offending both sides, which is the closest thing to unity we ever experience. Maybe having this to fight about would distract some of our stupidity from real policy questions. That could be a win. > Unlike in Homer’s Odyssey, there will be no massacre if people stay longer than they should or have more free refills than is calculated to be ideal. This is funny but also grossly unfair to Odysseus and Telemachus.

panzagl 7y ago
There is a lot of politics involved in school cafeteria lunches- nutrition, allergies, religious restrictions, quality, cost, big food conspirists and lobbyists and whatever nutrition fad is current all have proponents who are perfectly willing to tie up school board meetings and otherwise push their agenda to the best of their ability. I'd have to think any gov't based approach would attract similar.
noxToken 7y ago
Maybe I missed this, but where do politics play a role in this idea? I could see if these were gov't run/funded places, but these could thrive alone via private business just as many restaurants do. Both parties could exist alongside each other.
- dkarl 7y ago
  there are no public canteens in the city (what council could now afford to hang on to such a quantity of land after cuts?) After the war Conservatives dismissed them in parliament because they weren’t making profit. The canteens were allowed to decline, then disappear. Where I live, and apparently where the author lives, there's no way they could survive without government support, because they don't extract as much money from the space as other styles of restaurant do. The restaurant business is very tough, even without serving affordable food to all classes and providing ample space for lingering.

bluedino 7y ago

What's different between this and a buffet?

panzagl 7y ago
I guess London doesn't have the equivalent of Golden Corral or Old Country Buffet, or a decent diner now that I think of it. I wonder if she moved to English equivalent of the burbs there would be something more inviting.
chickenfries 7y ago
You usually serve yourself at a buffet, and it’s usually from one vendor. A canteen like this could have multiple vendors. A buffet is also usually “all you can eat” and priced to account for that.

solatic 7y ago

The author is nostalgic for something that can theoretically exist, but is very debatable whether it can exist at scale. The military has canteens. Leaving the budget per meal per soldier aside, there is inherent difficulty to providing food for hundreds of thousands of people within a short period, and to providing such food at a relatively consistent level of quality. Most organizations tasked with providing such a large quantity of food over a short period of time resort to outsourcing supply to food service companies which generally provide processed food which is either frozen or shelf-stable. Fresh produce is difficult and "healthy and delicious" is practically a pipe dream. There is a way to deal with this - hire an educated chef who can nurture relationships with many local farmers to negotiate supply, and actively manage the kitchen to make the best of the locally-sourced supply, not waste any of it, and put out a variety of dishes that, while not consistent in their contents from day-to-day, are consistently delicious. This is what Patrick Wodni [1] does for a Berlin hospital, but he's an exception because he was willing to take a large pay cut to work there. How many Patrick Wodnis are out there, for how many canteens would we need? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/world/europe/germany-chef-hospital-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/world/europe/germany-chef...

gambiting 7y ago
Poland still has "Milk bars"(Bar mleczny) which were the staple of dining during the communist times - they served mostly food based on milk and flour(hence the name) - pancakes with cheese, pierogi(many different fillings), different soups......they were extremely cheap and also pretty good. And....they still exist today. Krakow has one literally right in the city centre, next to the most premium of premium estates, where a restaurant literally right next door will have "western" levels of pricing, and yet they continue to serve simple, basic food for ~$1-3 per portion[0]. Granted, a lot of them closed after the fall of communism 20 years ago, but equally they still exist and still continue serving people. They are not just a tourist curio either - they are the place to go for students and workers. [0] https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g274772-d2693216-Reviews-Bar_Mleczny-Krakow_Lesser_Poland_Province_Southern_Poland.html#photos;aggregationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=63142217 https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g274772-d269...

tomcam 7y ago

I am a "high net worth individual" with a large second house in a leafy Seattle suburb. I use this house solely as an office, where I work by myself. The room I work in most often overlooks a forested area. But I like to get out sometimes. One of the great pleasures of my workday is eating at the local McDonalds, which is clean, run by nice people, and elegantly designed with plenty of natural light. They allow me to stay and use their free wifi for a couple hours if I wish. They have never even suggested that I leave, even after a marathon 3 hour visit. As a person who grew up not rich in a not safe place, I continue to be amazed such a thing is possible. My go-to meal is two cheeseburgers (substitute white cheddar) and unlimited fountain drinks for under USD$3.50, so I'm probably good for a few hundred bucks a year to them. Not exactly a prime customer. For whatever reason, maybe because I get jacked up on 3 diet cokes by the end of a long visit, it's a fantastic place for me to learn challenging material. I bring a big iPad and a $20 Bluetooth keyboard/iPad stand, then study my ass off and take notes in vim. I am under huge stress lately, and having to absorb a massive amount of technical literature fast while I undertake rewriting a running, production site with a very tight deadline. Don't think I'm not thankful for the opportunity every time it happens. It's a huge privilege IMHO.

WilliamEdward 7y ago
You're basically living my dream. How'd you make it happen?
- tomcam 7y ago
  I am truly blessed. I bought a business on eBay during the .com crash of 2000 (esnipe.com) and turned it into a moneymaker. From there I am gone into investment in domain names and real estate. I’ve also failed a lot, like the time when I spent $1,400,000 of my own money trying to beat craigslist.
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  - rograndom 7y ago

PeanutNore 7y ago

I eat at the IKEA canteen all the time. It's a treasure.

forkandwait 7y ago

I hated Panda Express when I lived urban California and there were 1000s of small Chinese canteens, but now I go twice a week. If they had real China (hehe) I would eat there more often, but I just get to go.

prmph 7y ago

Is Panera Bread in the US not such an establishment? good coffee and tea, plenty of seating of various forms in various nooks, self bussing, etc. I loved to lose myself there doing remote work when I was in US

starpilot 7y ago

I see a lot of comparisons to things that are nothing like canteens, possibly because most Americans have never been to one (Ikea food court is the closest thing). Canteens (stolovaya) are alive and well in Russia. Here's how the line-up looks: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg Here's what your tray might look like at the end: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/photo0jpg.jpg https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/... You get charged per item, so it's higher quality than AYCE buffet. There's tons of variety, and you get to see your food before you purchase it. The closest thing I've seen in the US might be Bakeman's restaurant in Seattle, but it was sandwich-focused. The combination of hearty food with a plethora of options and minimal service is not something I've seen in the US. Some college cafeterias or museum dining areas are similar, but usually with less variety.

moltar 7y ago

I love canteens. In Ukraine they have proper canteen chains with good local food. Very cheap and delicious. Just love it. I’ll take that over a proper restaurant any day.

esotericn 7y ago

I agree. It's mind-bendingly frustrating to me that eating out in the UK seems to be a fundamentally unhealthy affair. I just want meat and two veg, a curry without a wad of oil, spaghetti bolognese, whatever. A standard staple meal without a ton of additives or other weirdness. If anyone knows of places like this in London I'm all ears. The best I can think of right now is IKEA food court which isn't the healthiest and isn't next to anything else. Basically anywhere I can think of serves bastardizations of real food. Polish milk bars, as stated below, are the only time I think I've ever eaten real food outside of a private home.

selimthegrim 7y ago
In Edinburgh the central mosque had (still has) a pretty legendary canteen