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End users wouldn’t be using them. I’m all for Apple providing support for third-party repair shops. I’m against Apple being forced to allow actual end-users to

End users wouldn’t be using them. I’m all for Apple providing support for third-party repair shops. I’m against Apple being forced to allow actual end-users to open up and “repair” their phones, because the latter is not going to end well. I shouldn’t be allowed to open up my own phone, but I should be able to take it to a third-party repair shop with access to Apple tools and training materials.

Notorious_BLT 7y ago
In what universe should it not be okay for you to open up your own phone? You own it, you should be allowed to do whatever you want to it.
- eridius 7y ago
  You’re allowed to open up your phone today. Nobody is saying the police should knock down your door because you opened your phone. What’s at stake right now is if you open your phone, you void your warranty and Apple will not provide any more support for you. Which seems perfectly justified to me; iPhones are sufficiently complicated that end users will absolutely damage or destroy their phones by opening them up. The distinction I’m drawing is between end users and third-party repair shops. Users need to have a way to get support, and Apple Stores aren’t available everywhere, or aren’t necessarily offering repairs as cheaply as a third-party shop could. Third-party repair shops should be able to repair iPhones without voiding warranty, as long as they use Apple-supplied parts and with access to Apple-supplied training materials. But end users shouldn’t.
  - asdff 7y ago
    People replace screens all the time, it is not a difficult job.
    - eridius 7y ago
      Every single case of third-party screen replacement for iPhones I've personally ever heard of has resulted in disaster down the road for the person who got their screen replaced. And that was before the edge-to-edge iPhone X screen. Apple uses highly specialized and expensive equipment for screen replacements (at least for the iPhone X screen). Even if third-party shops had the ability to buy the same equipment, I don't think they'd want to pay for it.
busterarm 7y ago
Do yourself a favor and follow an iFixit phone repair guide once in your life. There's really no mystery or safety concern to it. I did thousands of laptop repairs in my early 20s with essentially no training and no support (tooling) behind me. Once you buy something it should be yours to fool with. For good and bad.
- eridius 7y ago
  Nobody is saying you can’t fool with it. But if you “fool with it” then you shouldn’t expect Apple to provide support for you.
  - busterarm 7y ago
    They don't provide good support now. Basic component failures become full board/assembly replacements for $$$. There's also a big leap from that to "shouldn't be allowed to open". This is also a battle that has been lost once before. Desktop computer manufacturers used to put tamper-evident stickers on their cases stating that you would void your warranty if you opened your case. Congress made the industry BTFO on that one.
    - eridius 7y ago
      Opening a desktop tower is vastly different from opening a tightly-packed complex piece of equipment like the iPhone. Even if you do nothing else besides open and close it, you still may have compromised the water resistance of the device, or gotten dust in there. You can do whatever you want with your hardware, but the question is whether Apple should be on the hook for providing repair service afterwards.
      - deathanatos 7y ago
        I do not see where, in the proposed legislation[1], the requirements on Apple to honor or not honor warranties due to mishaps occurring during self-repair is changing. It seems like whatever they are (legally) doing today, they can continue to do. What the legislation does do is require them to provide technical parts and details. Currently, my understanding is that Apple is strong-arming shops into either losing access to parts and knowledge (you don't become an Apple Authorized repair, and thus, lose access), or forcing them to lose business (you join, but Apple forces you to send them business as a condition and limits the types of repairs you, as a repair shop, can do). My personal opinion is, if damage occurs during a repair: if it was due to error on the manufacturer's part, then it's under warranty. If it was your error, then it's not. [1]: AFAICT, this is AB 1163, which is not cited nor mentioned in TFA: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB1163 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?...
eridius 7y ago
I am honestly surprised that HN's reaction to "Apple should provide tools and training to third-party shops" is to be downvoted. I have yet to see a single person explain why an end user should be opening up their own iPhone and mucking about with it and then expecting Apple to provide warranty repairs afterwards.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  I didn't downvote, but I don't see a bright line between me using the right tools and procedures to fix my phone vs having a third party repair service do it. I also don't think that a repair service is going to be more qualified in general than I am at the tasks I'm likely to undertake. (I'm no Louis Rossman, but I'm a fairly skilled electronics hobbyist; I haven't broken anything while servicing it in quite a while.) If Apple is going to support a phone after a third-party repair (which I'm not sure I necessarily agree with), they should do it after I remove and reinstall a screw equally well.
  - eridius 7y ago
    You don't have access to Apple-supplied parts and especially don't have access to Apple-supplied training. Even if Apple did make this publicly available, the overwhelming majority of people are not remotely qualified to follow along, and making this available to end users just ensures that people will damage their own devices. If you want to risk damaging your device, that's fine, but it just doesn't make sense to demand that Apple then turn around and provide warranty service to a phone that was damaged by an unqualified user opening up their device and mucking with it. Apple should support a phone after a third-party repair if the third party uses Apple parts and is qualified to do so using Apple training materials. The alternative is that Apple should be on the hook for providing at-cost first-party repair within a reasonable distance of their entire customer base around the entire world, but Apple doesn't seem to want to operate enough stores to adequately service the repair needs of all of their customers.

Notorious_BLT 7y ago

In what universe should it not be okay for you to open up your own phone? You own it, you should be allowed to do whatever you want to it.

eridius 7y ago
You’re allowed to open up your phone today. Nobody is saying the police should knock down your door because you opened your phone. What’s at stake right now is if you open your phone, you void your warranty and Apple will not provide any more support for you. Which seems perfectly justified to me; iPhones are sufficiently complicated that end users will absolutely damage or destroy their phones by opening them up. The distinction I’m drawing is between end users and third-party repair shops. Users need to have a way to get support, and Apple Stores aren’t available everywhere, or aren’t necessarily offering repairs as cheaply as a third-party shop could. Third-party repair shops should be able to repair iPhones without voiding warranty, as long as they use Apple-supplied parts and with access to Apple-supplied training materials. But end users shouldn’t.
- asdff 7y ago
  People replace screens all the time, it is not a difficult job.
  - eridius 7y ago
    Every single case of third-party screen replacement for iPhones I've personally ever heard of has resulted in disaster down the road for the person who got their screen replaced. And that was before the edge-to-edge iPhone X screen. Apple uses highly specialized and expensive equipment for screen replacements (at least for the iPhone X screen). Even if third-party shops had the ability to buy the same equipment, I don't think they'd want to pay for it.

busterarm 7y ago

Do yourself a favor and follow an iFixit phone repair guide once in your life. There's really no mystery or safety concern to it. I did thousands of laptop repairs in my early 20s with essentially no training and no support (tooling) behind me. Once you buy something it should be yours to fool with. For good and bad.

eridius 7y ago
Nobody is saying you can’t fool with it. But if you “fool with it” then you shouldn’t expect Apple to provide support for you.
- busterarm 7y ago
  They don't provide good support now. Basic component failures become full board/assembly replacements for $$$. There's also a big leap from that to "shouldn't be allowed to open". This is also a battle that has been lost once before. Desktop computer manufacturers used to put tamper-evident stickers on their cases stating that you would void your warranty if you opened your case. Congress made the industry BTFO on that one.
  - eridius 7y ago
    Opening a desktop tower is vastly different from opening a tightly-packed complex piece of equipment like the iPhone. Even if you do nothing else besides open and close it, you still may have compromised the water resistance of the device, or gotten dust in there. You can do whatever you want with your hardware, but the question is whether Apple should be on the hook for providing repair service afterwards.
    - deathanatos 7y ago
      I do not see where, in the proposed legislation[1], the requirements on Apple to honor or not honor warranties due to mishaps occurring during self-repair is changing. It seems like whatever they are (legally) doing today, they can continue to do. What the legislation does do is require them to provide technical parts and details. Currently, my understanding is that Apple is strong-arming shops into either losing access to parts and knowledge (you don't become an Apple Authorized repair, and thus, lose access), or forcing them to lose business (you join, but Apple forces you to send them business as a condition and limits the types of repairs you, as a repair shop, can do). My personal opinion is, if damage occurs during a repair: if it was due to error on the manufacturer's part, then it's under warranty. If it was your error, then it's not. [1]: AFAICT, this is AB 1163, which is not cited nor mentioned in TFA: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB1163 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?...

eridius 7y ago

I am honestly surprised that HN's reaction to "Apple should provide tools and training to third-party shops" is to be downvoted. I have yet to see a single person explain why an end user should be opening up their own iPhone and mucking about with it and then expecting Apple to provide warranty repairs afterwards.

sokoloff 7y ago
I didn't downvote, but I don't see a bright line between me using the right tools and procedures to fix my phone vs having a third party repair service do it. I also don't think that a repair service is going to be more qualified in general than I am at the tasks I'm likely to undertake. (I'm no Louis Rossman, but I'm a fairly skilled electronics hobbyist; I haven't broken anything while servicing it in quite a while.) If Apple is going to support a phone after a third-party repair (which I'm not sure I necessarily agree with), they should do it after I remove and reinstall a screw equally well.
- eridius 7y ago
  You don't have access to Apple-supplied parts and especially don't have access to Apple-supplied training. Even if Apple did make this publicly available, the overwhelming majority of people are not remotely qualified to follow along, and making this available to end users just ensures that people will damage their own devices. If you want to risk damaging your device, that's fine, but it just doesn't make sense to demand that Apple then turn around and provide warranty service to a phone that was damaged by an unqualified user opening up their device and mucking with it. Apple should support a phone after a third-party repair if the third party uses Apple parts and is qualified to do so using Apple training materials. The alternative is that Apple should be on the hook for providing at-cost first-party repair within a reasonable distance of their entire customer base around the entire world, but Apple doesn't seem to want to operate enough stores to adequately service the repair needs of all of their customers.