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Not sure what qualifies fact, as there are not a lot of wild bovine species left in world. As for choosing not to mate, I think there are studies showing that

Not sure what qualifies fact, as there are not a lot of wild bovine species left in world. As for choosing not to mate, I think there are studies showing that animals in captivity regularly refuse to mate. After all, in the wild there’s competition. It’s also possible and not uncommon to alter feeding regimes to stimulate heifers to reach puberty faster than that which would happen in the wild. The comment was meant to touch upon the question of whether dairy cattle live happy lifes. It’s hard to argue that they do, although it’s also hard to prove that they don’t. From an ethical humanitarian point of view which I think is totally appropriate when deciding what to eat, one can easily empathize with these animals by simple observation and a sprinkle of common sense. Whatever the facts are, dictated by whatever authority, may or may not make a huge difference. I don’t think it matters so long as animals are impregnated forcefully by humans through artificial insemination while in captivity, there’s so little resemblance to the wild that any comparison is quite pointless. Edit: I have education in agriculture and have both visited and worked at several dairy farms.

simion314 7y ago
I also don't care what happens in the wild, I care about facts and people that invent facts to support their claims. AFAIK we can't force impregnate an animal if it is not in heat, the animals that won't mate in captivity probably do not get in heat or from documentaries I seen they fail to get pregnant or keep the pregnancy (I seen one about pandas).
- tomstoms 7y ago
  Well, I can’t produce the hard facts. I’m talking about what I know from anecdotal and educational experience. I don’t have sources at hand. Sorry :) If you really care about the subject I encourage you to research it from all points of view. If you can, visit some dairy farms and make your own observations.
  - simion314 7y ago
    I have a ton of experience with farms in third world countries, we did not feed them antibiotics or hormones or special food, only grass or other related plant thing from our grounds. For a long time we had a bull that would do the job when the cows were in heat but when we reduced the number of cows it is too expensive to have a bull and we asked a veterinarian to do the artificial insemination. I did not heard of any magic way to make the cows have more milk, there is no need to have her get pregnant often, and the quality of the milk is related with the food quality. The quantity of the milk is something genetic, some cows just give more milk then others, and some races then other. What I see from some responses her is that the facts were wrong, the cows are not forced in heat(nobody provided a link) and all the thread is based on morals/ethical stuff that I don't want to debate, I wanted to know if I am missing some information(I have no time and need to inform myself on how some bad farms do things because I am not promoting an ideology with facts I did not researched before)
    - tomstoms 7y ago
      That’s your prerogative of course. I never said that cattle are forced into heat. Most of western industrialized dairy production use artificial insemination though. That’s hardy controversial or in need of backing up with sources. Nothing ideological about it. You don’t think it qualifies as forcing an animal into pregnancy, well that’s up to you to fit into your ethics framework, nothing I can present as “fact” can change that. It’s perfectly possible to improve the quality of milk (I.e. manipulate fat, protein and lactose contents) via altering feeding regimes. Hardly controversial, and quite common but in the west, through the use of feed concentrates with additives. Nothing ideological about this either. As for hormone supplements to control heat, well, or sure why you find this hard to believe, but the again, your anecdotal experience maybe doesn’t support it. Do some basic research into western industrialized dairy production. You say you don’t have time to research, but the you expect others to do it for you? Not really any constructive about that. My comment was about a question that was asked: do dairy cattle live happy lives? I don’t believe it’s possible to answer that question with hard facts.
      - simion314 7y ago
- tomstoms 7y ago
  It’s true that you can’t impregnate an animal in heat, but once in heat you can obviously. It’s also possible to control heat with hormon supplements, which farmers regularly use to synchronize calfings in their herd. Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Just because a female is ovulating, do you have the right to impregnate her?
  - simion314 7y ago
    >Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Just because a female is ovulating, do you have the right to impregnate her? Just if a female is hungry do I have the right to give it food? If she is ill do I have the right to heal her or I need to ask for permission? Same for pet owners.
    - tomstoms 7y ago
      What point are you trying to make? Not sure hiw putting a plate of food in front of someone is comparable to putting your arm into a female’s birth canal with a canister of sperm. Again, what you think is ok and not ok in terms of treating an animal, even pets, is part of your ethical framework. And it’s up to you to inform yourself in order to justify that framework to yourself. The burden of proof is not on anyone but you.

simion314 7y ago

I also don't care what happens in the wild, I care about facts and people that invent facts to support their claims. AFAIK we can't force impregnate an animal if it is not in heat, the animals that won't mate in captivity probably do not get in heat or from documentaries I seen they fail to get pregnant or keep the pregnancy (I seen one about pandas).

tomstoms 7y ago
Well, I can’t produce the hard facts. I’m talking about what I know from anecdotal and educational experience. I don’t have sources at hand. Sorry :) If you really care about the subject I encourage you to research it from all points of view. If you can, visit some dairy farms and make your own observations.
- simion314 7y ago
  I have a ton of experience with farms in third world countries, we did not feed them antibiotics or hormones or special food, only grass or other related plant thing from our grounds. For a long time we had a bull that would do the job when the cows were in heat but when we reduced the number of cows it is too expensive to have a bull and we asked a veterinarian to do the artificial insemination. I did not heard of any magic way to make the cows have more milk, there is no need to have her get pregnant often, and the quality of the milk is related with the food quality. The quantity of the milk is something genetic, some cows just give more milk then others, and some races then other. What I see from some responses her is that the facts were wrong, the cows are not forced in heat(nobody provided a link) and all the thread is based on morals/ethical stuff that I don't want to debate, I wanted to know if I am missing some information(I have no time and need to inform myself on how some bad farms do things because I am not promoting an ideology with facts I did not researched before)
  - tomstoms 7y ago
    That’s your prerogative of course. I never said that cattle are forced into heat. Most of western industrialized dairy production use artificial insemination though. That’s hardy controversial or in need of backing up with sources. Nothing ideological about it. You don’t think it qualifies as forcing an animal into pregnancy, well that’s up to you to fit into your ethics framework, nothing I can present as “fact” can change that. It’s perfectly possible to improve the quality of milk (I.e. manipulate fat, protein and lactose contents) via altering feeding regimes. Hardly controversial, and quite common but in the west, through the use of feed concentrates with additives. Nothing ideological about this either. As for hormone supplements to control heat, well, or sure why you find this hard to believe, but the again, your anecdotal experience maybe doesn’t support it. Do some basic research into western industrialized dairy production. You say you don’t have time to research, but the you expect others to do it for you? Not really any constructive about that. My comment was about a question that was asked: do dairy cattle live happy lives? I don’t believe it’s possible to answer that question with hard facts.
    - simion314 7y ago
tomstoms 7y ago
It’s true that you can’t impregnate an animal in heat, but once in heat you can obviously. It’s also possible to control heat with hormon supplements, which farmers regularly use to synchronize calfings in their herd. Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Just because a female is ovulating, do you have the right to impregnate her?
- simion314 7y ago
  >Not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Just because a female is ovulating, do you have the right to impregnate her? Just if a female is hungry do I have the right to give it food? If she is ill do I have the right to heal her or I need to ask for permission? Same for pet owners.
  - tomstoms 7y ago
    What point are you trying to make? Not sure hiw putting a plate of food in front of someone is comparable to putting your arm into a female’s birth canal with a canister of sperm. Again, what you think is ok and not ok in terms of treating an animal, even pets, is part of your ethical framework. And it’s up to you to inform yourself in order to justify that framework to yourself. The burden of proof is not on anyone but you.