4 ms·

If all wikileaks was doing was publishing information about illegal or highly suspect acts by the government it'd be one thing. But that isn't all they're doing

by viggity 16y ago

If all wikileaks was doing was publishing information about illegal or highly suspect acts by the government it'd be one thing. But that isn't all they're doing, and it is these other releases that has really pissed me off. For instance, what legitimate purpose does it serve to release a list of infrastructure that are critical to national security? (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWvPaI6hITHo0rNy-iYGp5jV0RLQ?docId=CNG.8549d9b93537814e90de0a33a00a6b06.151 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWvPaI6hI...) If diplomacy is so important to the people of the world, why are so many people cheering on the fact that wikileaks has made it almost impossible for diplomats to give frank and honest assessments of the countries in which they work? When wikileaks makes everything "transparent", everything becomes opaque, because no diplomat will write any memos or share information with one another. Wikileaks is a tremendous blow to anyone who wants to see international problems come to a peaceful and diplomatic resolution.

nhangen 16y ago
I agree. I don't get it. Are we this desperate for a hero that we'll romanticize the average in order to have one?
- nhangen 16y ago
  And so it seems that the surest way to get downvoted on Hacker News is to say something bad about Julian Assange. Boringly predictable.
  - lincolnq 16y ago
    And so it seems that trolls get their just deserts.
    - nhangen 16y ago
      How is representing an opinion being a troll? Fact is, I don't like the guy, I don't trust his intentions, and I think Wikileaks is a worldwide disaster. I just don't understand why reasonable objections are so quickly criticized here.
      - mquander 16y ago
        OK, look at the comment you originally replied to. It's a "reasonable objection" about Wikileaks. It also has actual content and a point that it makes, as opposed to, say, being a one-line opinion with no support. Now look at your comment.
        nhangen 16y ago
        I replied to a comment in the thread, re-enforcing that commenters opinion. I'm sure people don't like it, and that's fine, but to consistently be downvoted every time I post a negative reaction to Assange is absurd. I wish we, as a community, could elevate ourselves above the infighting reminiscent of an MSNBC or FOXNews.
        semanticist 16y ago
        You don't need to reply to 'reinforce' a comments opinion. Just click the 'up' button.
        nhangen 16y ago
        Don't need to, but have the option to.
        lincolnq 16y ago
        Please consider the possibility that you haven't learned to post your negative reactions in a thoughtful way, rather than that the community is simply downvoting opinions they don't like.
        nhangen 16y ago
        It's thoughtful to me. I believe in being clear and concise. We're dealing in subjectivity here, it's as simple as that.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        16y ago
  - trotsky 16y ago
    A lot of people use the down button to say "I disagree". No real news there, but it's best not to take downvotes to mean anything more than you have less than a 50% popular opinion.
    - nhangen 16y ago
      There's some irony in that no? Thanks for the sentiment, you're right, but it's frustrating nonetheless.
- torpor 16y ago
  Yes, actually, people are desperate for the truth. The US Government has gotten away with lying to its citizens for far, far too long, and in the meantime is still committing atrocious acts of war against innocent people, daily. So: yes. We do need Julian Assange, and more people like him, to stand up and fight these heinous powers being abused by dishonest criminals in the Pentagon, and the US Government.
- robin_reala 16y ago
  If the average person was as interested in exposing the dirty side of government and big business as Mr Assange we wouldn’t be in this position. He most decidedly isn’t average.
  - nhangen 16y ago
    He's no different than Harvey Levine, though I'll admit, he plays to the crowd well.
cromulent 16y ago
Here's the Australian infrastructure that is listed as critical to US national security: "Australia: Southern Cross undersea cable landing, Brookvale, Australia Southern Cross undersea cable landing, Sydney, Australia Manganese -- battery grade, natural; battery grade, synthetic; chemical grade; ferro; metallurgical grade Nickel Mines Maybe Faulding Mulgrave Victoria, Australia: Manufacturing facility for Midazolam injection. Mayne Pharma (fill/finish), Melbourne, Australia: Sole suppliers of Crotalid Polyvalent Antivenin (CroFab)." Maybe if you worked at the Crotalid plant making rattlesnake antivenin and you might like to know that you were a possible terrorist target due to your role in safeguarding the US. Or if you worked at a nickel mine somewhere. How critical are these, exactly - I'm not sure.
- jdp23 16y ago
  Crikey's ‘Critical infrastructure’ = hysterical reaction had more on this, including In the event al-Qaeda wants to prosecute a death-by-rattlesnake strategy in the United States, yes, it could take out Mayne Pharma’s Melbourne plant, in the hope of increasing the number of deaths from snake bite, although most rattlesnake bites are not lethal. Or … maybe that would just increase sales of the other, Mexican-developed antivenin Antivipmyn, which some practitioners regard as cheaper and more effective than Crofab. Or they could sever the Southern Cross fibre optic cable in Sydney (“Australian link broken — rest of world isolated!”). But then, terrorists would know about that from Wikipedia, rather than WikiLeaks. Or perhaps they’d find out from the website of the cable owner. In fact if you want the exact spot for that cable, consult ACMA’s handy “Sydney Submarine Protection Zones”, which details the precise location of these important pieces of communication infrastructure. http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/07/critical-infrastructure-hysterical-reaction/ http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/07/critical-infrastructure-...
- makmanalp 16y ago
  Brilliant, now these people can double their prices. :)
lkjhgfvhjk 16y ago
To show how ridiculous some of the secrets are and to dissuade governments for keeping so many of them? The post office tower - a 600ft tall microwave relay with a revolving restaurant on top - in central london is secret. It didn't appear on maps and any mention of it was removed from parliament reports.
torpor 16y ago
>because no diplomat will write any memos or share information with one another Not true. Honest and courageous diplomats will continue to tell the truth. Cowards need not apply.
astrec 16y ago
Australia's Foreign Minister - who has been reasonably conspicuous in the cables released so far - covered this issue during a presser on Monday: QUESTION: Mr Rudd, just on that question. Do you think WikiLeaks will have a chilling effect on diplomacy, and, you know, back-room talks. KEVIN RUDD: I think it's having a focusing effect. QUESTION: As far as, you know, making people more cautious, and making diplomacy [indistinct]? KEVIN RUDD: I think foreign ministers around the world, from countries of all sorts of political traditions, are scratching their heads about this one at the moment - I'm just being frank with you - and particularly when, if we are dealing with diplomatic communications the content of which, if we are to be consistent with our profession, we then don't comment on. At the same time this has created real difficulties in various other parts of the world. Let's just put all this in a bit of context. You've had recent reports concerning - heads of government have been accused of corruption, being associated with the Mafia, been urging the United States to go to war against particular countries. I mean this has been happening in recent times. And without commenting, again, on the content or accuracy of any of those reports, it does create a separate and new dynamic. Now, what's the challenge for all of us? I was actually asked this question in Bahrain yesterday - what now happens? I think, rule number one for our friends in the United States is how do you tighten things up a bit? I think that's a fair old question. REPORTER: Security [indistinct] KEVIN RUDD: Well, it's just - you know, maybe two million or so people having access to this stuff is a bit of a problem. REPORTER: It's not the Lady Gaga CD. KEVIN RUDD: The - that could be a bit of a problem. But secondly, I reckon, what I believe to be the professional challenge for all of us, is to get on with the business, because all the big challenges we're dealing with haven't gone away. I had a question before about the Korean Peninsula, that is real, and live, and contemporary. And diplomacy, and the business of diplomacy, is underway, as we speak, on that. And if diplomacy gets it wrong on that then we all pay a very big price. So these challenges don't just go into suspended animation while we work our way through this stuff. So my answer, in Bahrain, as it is here today, is all of us to get on with the business, and not to become fundamentally side-tracked by all of this. But there are deep lessons, in terms of providing proper protection for such a large volume of diplomatic documents.
- ra 16y ago
  Now that's how a real Prime Minister talks. We definitely don't have a PM of that intellectual caliber today.
yread 16y ago
I would imagine that the cables mention the targets because they actually have some security - since they are critical (or perhaps Echelon is looking for their mentions?). So if I were a terrorist and be looking for a target I would certainly avoid those. Besides it doesn't look like the terrorist have any problem with coming up with important and visible targets.

by viggity 16y ago

nhangen 16y ago

I agree. I don't get it. Are we this desperate for a hero that we'll romanticize the average in order to have one?

nhangen 16y ago
And so it seems that the surest way to get downvoted on Hacker News is to say something bad about Julian Assange. Boringly predictable.
- lincolnq 16y ago
  And so it seems that trolls get their just deserts.
  - nhangen 16y ago
    How is representing an opinion being a troll? Fact is, I don't like the guy, I don't trust his intentions, and I think Wikileaks is a worldwide disaster. I just don't understand why reasonable objections are so quickly criticized here.
    - mquander 16y ago
      OK, look at the comment you originally replied to. It's a "reasonable objection" about Wikileaks. It also has actual content and a point that it makes, as opposed to, say, being a one-line opinion with no support. Now look at your comment.
      - nhangen 16y ago
        I replied to a comment in the thread, re-enforcing that commenters opinion. I'm sure people don't like it, and that's fine, but to consistently be downvoted every time I post a negative reaction to Assange is absurd. I wish we, as a community, could elevate ourselves above the infighting reminiscent of an MSNBC or FOXNews.
        semanticist 16y ago
        You don't need to reply to 'reinforce' a comments opinion. Just click the 'up' button.
        nhangen 16y ago
        Don't need to, but have the option to.
        lincolnq 16y ago
        Please consider the possibility that you haven't learned to post your negative reactions in a thoughtful way, rather than that the community is simply downvoting opinions they don't like.
        nhangen 16y ago
        It's thoughtful to me. I believe in being clear and concise. We're dealing in subjectivity here, it's as simple as that.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        16y ago
- trotsky 16y ago
  A lot of people use the down button to say "I disagree". No real news there, but it's best not to take downvotes to mean anything more than you have less than a 50% popular opinion.
  - nhangen 16y ago
    There's some irony in that no? Thanks for the sentiment, you're right, but it's frustrating nonetheless.
torpor 16y ago
Yes, actually, people are desperate for the truth. The US Government has gotten away with lying to its citizens for far, far too long, and in the meantime is still committing atrocious acts of war against innocent people, daily. So: yes. We do need Julian Assange, and more people like him, to stand up and fight these heinous powers being abused by dishonest criminals in the Pentagon, and the US Government.
robin_reala 16y ago
If the average person was as interested in exposing the dirty side of government and big business as Mr Assange we wouldn’t be in this position. He most decidedly isn’t average.
- nhangen 16y ago
  He's no different than Harvey Levine, though I'll admit, he plays to the crowd well.

cromulent 16y ago

Here's the Australian infrastructure that is listed as critical to US national security: "Australia: Southern Cross undersea cable landing, Brookvale, Australia Southern Cross undersea cable landing, Sydney, Australia Manganese -- battery grade, natural; battery grade, synthetic; chemical grade; ferro; metallurgical grade Nickel Mines Maybe Faulding Mulgrave Victoria, Australia: Manufacturing facility for Midazolam injection. Mayne Pharma (fill/finish), Melbourne, Australia: Sole suppliers of Crotalid Polyvalent Antivenin (CroFab)." Maybe if you worked at the Crotalid plant making rattlesnake antivenin and you might like to know that you were a possible terrorist target due to your role in safeguarding the US. Or if you worked at a nickel mine somewhere. How critical are these, exactly - I'm not sure.

jdp23 16y ago
Crikey's ‘Critical infrastructure’ = hysterical reaction had more on this, including In the event al-Qaeda wants to prosecute a death-by-rattlesnake strategy in the United States, yes, it could take out Mayne Pharma’s Melbourne plant, in the hope of increasing the number of deaths from snake bite, although most rattlesnake bites are not lethal. Or … maybe that would just increase sales of the other, Mexican-developed antivenin Antivipmyn, which some practitioners regard as cheaper and more effective than Crofab. Or they could sever the Southern Cross fibre optic cable in Sydney (“Australian link broken — rest of world isolated!”). But then, terrorists would know about that from Wikipedia, rather than WikiLeaks. Or perhaps they’d find out from the website of the cable owner. In fact if you want the exact spot for that cable, consult ACMA’s handy “Sydney Submarine Protection Zones”, which details the precise location of these important pieces of communication infrastructure. http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/07/critical-infrastructure-hysterical-reaction/ http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/07/critical-infrastructure-...
makmanalp 16y ago
Brilliant, now these people can double their prices. :)

lkjhgfvhjk 16y ago

To show how ridiculous some of the secrets are and to dissuade governments for keeping so many of them? The post office tower - a 600ft tall microwave relay with a revolving restaurant on top - in central london is secret. It didn't appear on maps and any mention of it was removed from parliament reports.

torpor 16y ago

>because no diplomat will write any memos or share information with one another Not true. Honest and courageous diplomats will continue to tell the truth. Cowards need not apply.

astrec 16y ago

Australia's Foreign Minister - who has been reasonably conspicuous in the cables released so far - covered this issue during a presser on Monday: QUESTION: Mr Rudd, just on that question. Do you think WikiLeaks will have a chilling effect on diplomacy, and, you know, back-room talks. KEVIN RUDD: I think it's having a focusing effect. QUESTION: As far as, you know, making people more cautious, and making diplomacy [indistinct]? KEVIN RUDD: I think foreign ministers around the world, from countries of all sorts of political traditions, are scratching their heads about this one at the moment - I'm just being frank with you - and particularly when, if we are dealing with diplomatic communications the content of which, if we are to be consistent with our profession, we then don't comment on. At the same time this has created real difficulties in various other parts of the world. Let's just put all this in a bit of context. You've had recent reports concerning - heads of government have been accused of corruption, being associated with the Mafia, been urging the United States to go to war against particular countries. I mean this has been happening in recent times. And without commenting, again, on the content or accuracy of any of those reports, it does create a separate and new dynamic. Now, what's the challenge for all of us? I was actually asked this question in Bahrain yesterday - what now happens? I think, rule number one for our friends in the United States is how do you tighten things up a bit? I think that's a fair old question. REPORTER: Security [indistinct] KEVIN RUDD: Well, it's just - you know, maybe two million or so people having access to this stuff is a bit of a problem. REPORTER: It's not the Lady Gaga CD. KEVIN RUDD: The - that could be a bit of a problem. But secondly, I reckon, what I believe to be the professional challenge for all of us, is to get on with the business, because all the big challenges we're dealing with haven't gone away. I had a question before about the Korean Peninsula, that is real, and live, and contemporary. And diplomacy, and the business of diplomacy, is underway, as we speak, on that. And if diplomacy gets it wrong on that then we all pay a very big price. So these challenges don't just go into suspended animation while we work our way through this stuff. So my answer, in Bahrain, as it is here today, is all of us to get on with the business, and not to become fundamentally side-tracked by all of this. But there are deep lessons, in terms of providing proper protection for such a large volume of diplomatic documents.

ra 16y ago
Now that's how a real Prime Minister talks. We definitely don't have a PM of that intellectual caliber today.

yread 16y ago

I would imagine that the cables mention the targets because they actually have some security - since they are critical (or perhaps Echelon is looking for their mentions?). So if I were a terrorist and be looking for a target I would certainly avoid those. Besides it doesn't look like the terrorist have any problem with coming up with important and visible targets.