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While the film's subject matter is certainly intense, I had a positive take-away from it as well, which is that a large percentage of people who experience a fa

While the film's subject matter is certainly intense, I had a positive take-away from it as well, which is that a large percentage of people who experience a failed suicide attempt are glad they failed. This was the logic used to justify constructing suicide prevention barriers on bridges. If you take away the immediate opportunity for people to take their own lives, a few determined people may find another way, but many more will give up their attempt.

Smithalicious 8y ago
Isn't this just (literal) survivorship bias? I'd think that people that want to kill themselves very much would try again until they succeed, leaving only people who did not desire to die as strongly to report on how they felt about their failed attempt.
- mikeash 8y ago
  A failed suicide attempt at the bridge is still a traumatic event that puts you in the hospital. It will take some time before you have the opportunity to try again, and if you succeed, the fact that you failed in your previous attempt will be known to anyone doing a study.
- intertextuality 8y ago
  This would be true except that a large percentage of suicides are snap decisions in the moment, not planned out. For example, switching to natural gas from coal gas in the UK ended up dropping suicide rates in general.[0] I also read another study that looked at two similar bridges about a mile or so away from each other: 1 bridge was popular for suicides, and as such had guards put up. You'd think that those people would have just gone to the other bridge, but suicide rates declined in general. I can't find the source at the moment. [0]: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves-lives/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...
- DanBC 8y ago
  > I'd think that people that want to kill themselves very much would try again until they succeed No, this is a myth. Clearly there are differences in suicidality. Some people self harm frequently and severely for years before dying. Other people experience "rapid onset despair" and make an attempt. Recovery is possible for both groups. Most people who attempt suicide do not make another attempt. There's probably some data in the English NCISH reports here: https://sites.manchester.ac.uk/ncish/ https://sites.manchester.ac.uk/ncish/ (Also, I'm not trying to police your language. Use whatever words you like. But if you're talking to suicide researchers you may want to avoid "sucessful" or "failed" suicide, and use "died by suicide" or "killed themselves" (both for the UK) or "completed suicide" for the US.)
haberman 8y ago
> I had a positive take-away from it as well, which is that a large percentage of people who experience a failed suicide attempt are glad they failed. I watched the film during a time in my life when I was very depressed. I noticed that the data they used to draw this conclusion was something like a survey of how many people had reattempted suicide. Prevention techniques were considered a success if the person ultimately did not kill themself. On the flip side, I seem to remember one woman who noted a paradox that sometimes when people are treated and start to feel better, that's when they find the motivation to actually carry out a suicide plan. As I recall she sort of calls into question whether the treatment is actually a good idea if it will lead to that outcome. What I noticed (and felt quite bitter about at the time) is that everyone seemed to be focused almost entirely on their own goals (avoiding the anguish of their loved one dying) and somewhat oblivious to the goals of their suffering friend or family member (escaping the anguish they likely feel all or most of the time). The metric for success should be not "did this person ultimately avoid dying" but "did this person find a way to keep living without being in misery?" To show that you need to know more than just whether the person died or not.
- toomanyrichies 8y ago
  > The metric for success should be not "did this person ultimately avoid dying" but "did this person find a way to keep living without being in misery?" I would agree with your metric for success. You're absolutely correct that the former (by itself) isn't sufficient. My point is that it's hard to accomplish the latter (sp?) without first accomplishing the former. > On the flip side, I seem to remember one woman who noted a paradox that sometimes when people are treated and start to feel better, that's when they find the motivation to actually carry out a suicide plan. I'd be interested to see how many people who have contemplated suicide fall into the category you describe, as a percentage of the total group. I'd hope (perhaps a bit optimistically?) that they are in the minority. But I don't have data to make any claims one way or the other. Thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you're in a better place now.

Smithalicious 8y ago

Isn't this just (literal) survivorship bias? I'd think that people that want to kill themselves very much would try again until they succeed, leaving only people who did not desire to die as strongly to report on how they felt about their failed attempt.

mikeash 8y ago
A failed suicide attempt at the bridge is still a traumatic event that puts you in the hospital. It will take some time before you have the opportunity to try again, and if you succeed, the fact that you failed in your previous attempt will be known to anyone doing a study.
intertextuality 8y ago
This would be true except that a large percentage of suicides are snap decisions in the moment, not planned out. For example, switching to natural gas from coal gas in the UK ended up dropping suicide rates in general.[0] I also read another study that looked at two similar bridges about a mile or so away from each other: 1 bridge was popular for suicides, and as such had guards put up. You'd think that those people would have just gone to the other bridge, but suicide rates declined in general. I can't find the source at the moment. [0]: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves-lives/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...
DanBC 8y ago
> I'd think that people that want to kill themselves very much would try again until they succeed No, this is a myth. Clearly there are differences in suicidality. Some people self harm frequently and severely for years before dying. Other people experience "rapid onset despair" and make an attempt. Recovery is possible for both groups. Most people who attempt suicide do not make another attempt. There's probably some data in the English NCISH reports here: https://sites.manchester.ac.uk/ncish/ https://sites.manchester.ac.uk/ncish/ (Also, I'm not trying to police your language. Use whatever words you like. But if you're talking to suicide researchers you may want to avoid "sucessful" or "failed" suicide, and use "died by suicide" or "killed themselves" (both for the UK) or "completed suicide" for the US.)

haberman 8y ago

> I had a positive take-away from it as well, which is that a large percentage of people who experience a failed suicide attempt are glad they failed. I watched the film during a time in my life when I was very depressed. I noticed that the data they used to draw this conclusion was something like a survey of how many people had reattempted suicide. Prevention techniques were considered a success if the person ultimately did not kill themself. On the flip side, I seem to remember one woman who noted a paradox that sometimes when people are treated and start to feel better, that's when they find the motivation to actually carry out a suicide plan. As I recall she sort of calls into question whether the treatment is actually a good idea if it will lead to that outcome. What I noticed (and felt quite bitter about at the time) is that everyone seemed to be focused almost entirely on their own goals (avoiding the anguish of their loved one dying) and somewhat oblivious to the goals of their suffering friend or family member (escaping the anguish they likely feel all or most of the time). The metric for success should be not "did this person ultimately avoid dying" but "did this person find a way to keep living without being in misery?" To show that you need to know more than just whether the person died or not.

toomanyrichies 8y ago
> The metric for success should be not "did this person ultimately avoid dying" but "did this person find a way to keep living without being in misery?" I would agree with your metric for success. You're absolutely correct that the former (by itself) isn't sufficient. My point is that it's hard to accomplish the latter (sp?) without first accomplishing the former. > On the flip side, I seem to remember one woman who noted a paradox that sometimes when people are treated and start to feel better, that's when they find the motivation to actually carry out a suicide plan. I'd be interested to see how many people who have contemplated suicide fall into the category you describe, as a percentage of the total group. I'd hope (perhaps a bit optimistically?) that they are in the minority. But I don't have data to make any claims one way or the other. Thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you're in a better place now.