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As someone who has worked on fully remote game dev volunteer projects for nearly 10 years, it's unbelievable how much the cultural inertia of physical presence

As someone who has worked on fully remote game dev volunteer projects for nearly 10 years, it's unbelievable how much the cultural inertia of physical presence has prevented companies from making the rational move of eliminating all possible office space in favor of remote work and skype meetings. So much money wasted on rent, security, and upkeep and so much time (and even lives) lost to commuting when there isn't a single compelling reason programmers need to cohabitate a physical office to get their job done.

tcbawo 8y ago
Companies invest a lot in their employees. They don't want them to leave. In many managers' eyes, physical presence in the office makes it much easier to gauge employee satisfaction and whether they may be out interviewing. Also, it seems that in many organizations still, the employees that arrive to work earliest, are most punctual, most consistent, most organized, best dressed are viewed as more competent and are favored.
mixmastamyk 8y ago
Especially when their stuff runs on AWS.
- praneshp 8y ago
  what that does have to do with remote work? I commute to work everyday, but my team's code doesn't run in a cpu under my desk.
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    Systems administration used to be done in-house.
sametmax 8y ago
I get it personally. Remote requires better communication skill, and additional tooling and management to work around time differences. Besides, I know many people that are not as productive at home.
- HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
  Did I hear leftovers?
theshrike79 8y ago
Communication between team members is a huge issue in remote work. It works if everyone is on site. It also works if everyone is remote. But when some are at the office and some aren't, communication and information sharing becomes a lot harder. Mostly it's a process and tool issue, but still humans will rather just turn around and ask the team than spend a minute writing their issue on Slack/whatever.
- madshiva 8y ago
  You can work on site and still have the same problem of communication. All my colleagues work alone, speak about nothing in projet. Then the problem is not remote work but I agree that you need to be disciplined.
- heleninboodler 8y ago
  It's true. I worked at a company that was 100% remote when it started and kept the remote culture as it grew from 4 to 25 people, but one city in particular ended up having enough people that they decided to rent space in a big shared office, coworking-style. Ultimately, people who worked in that space ended up being more connected to what's going on, due to physical proximity. You wander past a hallway conversation and you end up joining, or at least knowing about it. You go to lunch with your coworkers and happen to get a little work talk in. You ask questions more easily from someone who's right across the desk from you because you can read social cues about how "interruptible" they are. Jokes come across better in person than via messaging. There are lots of subtle ways in which in-person interaction is just inherently different than remote, and the office people end up tighter.
  - btkramer9 8y ago
    doist?
  - Macha 8y ago
    It's not even remote vs non-remote. My employer had many medium sized offices of 100-200 people, and we merged with a company that had one single 5000+ person campus. That was a major culture clash for sure in terms of documentation and processes
IanCal 8y ago
> So much money wasted on rent, Although this now translates to a cost on me needing an extra room in the house for an office.
- jimmaswell 8y ago
  I do fine using my normal desk. Open AWS and Skype at the start of the day, do work, close them at 5, that's it. Bring a laptop to a different corner of the house or a library/coffee shop if you can't adapt to using your personal space for work. Working outside is nice when the weather permits.
  - drugme 8y ago
    I do fine using my normal desk. Not everyone has space in their apartment for a "normal desk". Bring a laptop to a different corner of the house or a library/coffee shop if you can't adapt to using your personal space for work. Not every coffee shop likes having people lounging around for 8 or more hours a day, making minimal purchase. Aside from the fact that most are too noisy to concentrate, have shit wifi, bathrooms that are frequently occupied / barely work, etc.
  - IanCal 8y ago
    If I didn't work from home, I'd not have a room for an office. Working from home means I need an extra room realistically.
lame88 8y ago
I like remote work to an extent, but its not that simple, and whether programmers "need" something or what "can" happen is a really not the best point to argue, because for example you don't "need" anything more than C if you require portable code to do anything that pretty much any other general purpose language does. I've also done these volunteer projects. They work because timelines are pretty up in the air, there's often little or no funding to be concerned with, everyone is working on it because they want to, and they're only working when they are well-motivated to do so. There are many more constraints in a proper company and job. Remote communication doesn't even come close to the interaction of a roughly synchronized office environment. Of course, there are downsides to the traditional office setup too, but in eliminating those concerns you introduce more problems presented by remote setup. I know people who even have the option of remote work and choose not to, and I can empathize with that sentiment.
rifung 8y ago
Even though I would absolutely prefer to work remotely, I have to disagree with you. I find that there are significant benefits to working in the same physical location. It's just way easier to go to someone's desk and ask them something than to have to set up a video chat. Human interaction is just naturally an in person thing. So much is lost if you can only video chat. Sure it may not affect the work directly but I think it really affects a team's dynamic. Lots of great ideas happen just from random office interactions, whether it be lunch or just talking over coffee. These kinds of things are really hard to reproduce in a remote environment. That's not to say there aren't reasons working remotely is beneficial. I just don't think it's fair to just say the only reason companies opt for physical proximity is cultural.
- driverdan 8y ago
  > It's just way easier to go to someone's desk and ask them something than to have to set up a video chat That's not a benefit, that's a downside. Interrupting someone while they're working kills productivity. You're far better asking in chat and having someone you're not interrupting help.
  - rifung 8y ago
    I'm sorry that you feel that way. I consider being able to help another person to be a huge privilege. What you describe sounds like it's putting one person's progress over another. Sure a mentor may be disrupted but by unblocking someone else they're still increasing the overall productivity of the team and thus is a net gain. > You're far better asking in chat and having someone you're not interrupting help. This only works when your question is general enough that many people can help you
gfs78 8y ago
Not every programmer does his/hers best working remote and communicating through slack/skype meetings. People have different personality traits. The remote devs in your volunteer projects were probably self-selecting. Also, some dev positions require extensive communication and that is easier in person.

tcbawo 8y ago

Companies invest a lot in their employees. They don't want them to leave. In many managers' eyes, physical presence in the office makes it much easier to gauge employee satisfaction and whether they may be out interviewing. Also, it seems that in many organizations still, the employees that arrive to work earliest, are most punctual, most consistent, most organized, best dressed are viewed as more competent and are favored.

mixmastamyk 8y ago

Especially when their stuff runs on AWS.

praneshp 8y ago
what that does have to do with remote work? I commute to work everyday, but my team's code doesn't run in a cpu under my desk.
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Systems administration used to be done in-house.

sametmax 8y ago

I get it personally. Remote requires better communication skill, and additional tooling and management to work around time differences. Besides, I know many people that are not as productive at home.

HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
Did I hear leftovers?

theshrike79 8y ago

Communication between team members is a huge issue in remote work. It works if everyone is on site. It also works if everyone is remote. But when some are at the office and some aren't, communication and information sharing becomes a lot harder. Mostly it's a process and tool issue, but still humans will rather just turn around and ask the team than spend a minute writing their issue on Slack/whatever.

madshiva 8y ago
You can work on site and still have the same problem of communication. All my colleagues work alone, speak about nothing in projet. Then the problem is not remote work but I agree that you need to be disciplined.
heleninboodler 8y ago
It's true. I worked at a company that was 100% remote when it started and kept the remote culture as it grew from 4 to 25 people, but one city in particular ended up having enough people that they decided to rent space in a big shared office, coworking-style. Ultimately, people who worked in that space ended up being more connected to what's going on, due to physical proximity. You wander past a hallway conversation and you end up joining, or at least knowing about it. You go to lunch with your coworkers and happen to get a little work talk in. You ask questions more easily from someone who's right across the desk from you because you can read social cues about how "interruptible" they are. Jokes come across better in person than via messaging. There are lots of subtle ways in which in-person interaction is just inherently different than remote, and the office people end up tighter.
- btkramer9 8y ago
  doist?
- Macha 8y ago
  It's not even remote vs non-remote. My employer had many medium sized offices of 100-200 people, and we merged with a company that had one single 5000+ person campus. That was a major culture clash for sure in terms of documentation and processes

IanCal 8y ago

> So much money wasted on rent, Although this now translates to a cost on me needing an extra room in the house for an office.

jimmaswell 8y ago
I do fine using my normal desk. Open AWS and Skype at the start of the day, do work, close them at 5, that's it. Bring a laptop to a different corner of the house or a library/coffee shop if you can't adapt to using your personal space for work. Working outside is nice when the weather permits.
- drugme 8y ago
  I do fine using my normal desk. Not everyone has space in their apartment for a "normal desk". Bring a laptop to a different corner of the house or a library/coffee shop if you can't adapt to using your personal space for work. Not every coffee shop likes having people lounging around for 8 or more hours a day, making minimal purchase. Aside from the fact that most are too noisy to concentrate, have shit wifi, bathrooms that are frequently occupied / barely work, etc.
- IanCal 8y ago
  If I didn't work from home, I'd not have a room for an office. Working from home means I need an extra room realistically.

lame88 8y ago

I like remote work to an extent, but its not that simple, and whether programmers "need" something or what "can" happen is a really not the best point to argue, because for example you don't "need" anything more than C if you require portable code to do anything that pretty much any other general purpose language does. I've also done these volunteer projects. They work because timelines are pretty up in the air, there's often little or no funding to be concerned with, everyone is working on it because they want to, and they're only working when they are well-motivated to do so. There are many more constraints in a proper company and job. Remote communication doesn't even come close to the interaction of a roughly synchronized office environment. Of course, there are downsides to the traditional office setup too, but in eliminating those concerns you introduce more problems presented by remote setup. I know people who even have the option of remote work and choose not to, and I can empathize with that sentiment.

rifung 8y ago

Even though I would absolutely prefer to work remotely, I have to disagree with you. I find that there are significant benefits to working in the same physical location. It's just way easier to go to someone's desk and ask them something than to have to set up a video chat. Human interaction is just naturally an in person thing. So much is lost if you can only video chat. Sure it may not affect the work directly but I think it really affects a team's dynamic. Lots of great ideas happen just from random office interactions, whether it be lunch or just talking over coffee. These kinds of things are really hard to reproduce in a remote environment. That's not to say there aren't reasons working remotely is beneficial. I just don't think it's fair to just say the only reason companies opt for physical proximity is cultural.

driverdan 8y ago
> It's just way easier to go to someone's desk and ask them something than to have to set up a video chat That's not a benefit, that's a downside. Interrupting someone while they're working kills productivity. You're far better asking in chat and having someone you're not interrupting help.
- rifung 8y ago
  I'm sorry that you feel that way. I consider being able to help another person to be a huge privilege. What you describe sounds like it's putting one person's progress over another. Sure a mentor may be disrupted but by unblocking someone else they're still increasing the overall productivity of the team and thus is a net gain. > You're far better asking in chat and having someone you're not interrupting help. This only works when your question is general enough that many people can help you

gfs78 8y ago

Not every programmer does his/hers best working remote and communicating through slack/skype meetings. People have different personality traits. The remote devs in your volunteer projects were probably self-selecting. Also, some dev positions require extensive communication and that is easier in person.