7 ms·

Most of these use cases would be better served with a type safe language.

by 1ba9115454 7y ago

vturner 7y ago
Down voted you will be, the dynamic typing sheriffs are on the watch ;)
- chadash 7y ago
  I didn't downvote the parent, but I think that doing so is justified because the comment doesn't add much to the conversation, whether you agree with it or not. To be a substantive comment, it should explain _why_ typed languages would be a better choice for these particular use cases.
  - tsss 7y ago
    At this point it should be common sense, there are arguments about this in practically every thread that mentions Python or JS. As much as I hate dynamic typing, there are use-cases where I don't care about it much. What makes Python truly an awful experience in any case is the completely asinine dependency management.
    - mirceal 7y ago
      haha. if you think dependency management is bad in python you should take a look at go :O
- coldtea 7y ago
  Downvoted grantparent because it's a non-argument comment, that offers nothing to the discussion, and based on nothing.
  - ahoka 7y ago
    Just like yours.
sametmax 7y ago
I read a lot of data analysis, prototyping, configuration, monitoring and deployment, for which Python is very, very well suited. So I don't follow how you got there.
bouncing 7y ago
I'm going to start a drinking game every time someone says that.
- tclancy 7y ago
  You'll want to get on a liver donor list now.
- cuddlecake 7y ago
  Will you start the game everytime someone says that, or will your game be to drink everytime someone says that? Honestly curious what your methodology is.
  - bouncing 7y ago
    Drink every time someone says that. See you at rehab!
- luord 7y ago
  It's been going on for sixty years (something the defenders of both paradigms often seem to ignore) and will never end, you'll die.
skywhopper 7y ago
This isn't a very useful comment in this form. What aspects of these specific use cases would be better served by a type-safe language? Why is type safety the most important attribute of language choice in this scenario?
throwaway55554 7y ago
Question: If they would be, don't you think Netflix would go that route? "Better" is contextually dependent. There's no silver bullet to anything we do in tech.
- jniedrauer 7y ago
  > don't you think Netflix would go that route? Not necessarily. Python has a few huge advantages that aren't (directly) related to the quality or utility of the language. For example, hiring and training people to use Python is going to be easier and cheaper than hiring and training people to use C++. Additionally, as mentioned in the article, Python has a massive and healthy ecosystem of high quality packages. And then there's the cost of porting an existing codebase to a new language...
  - throwaway55554 7y ago
    Then one could argue Netflix is using the best tool for their purpose, so a type safe language wouldn't be 'better'.
  - 781 7y ago
    Netflix are famous for paying the top salaries in the industry, you will take a paycut leaving them. Programmer cost is absolutely not a reason for anything done there. https://www.salaryproject.com/salaries/company/netflix/senior-software-engineer https://www.salaryproject.com/salaries/company/netflix/senio...
  - weberc2 7y ago
    You're supporting the parent's point that it's contextually dependant.
inglor 7y ago
You think you're being downvoted because people like dynamic typing very much. You're being downvoted because: A) You left a comment with a strong opinion without expressing it while dismissing other peoples' experience B) Python is in fact a type safe language for a while now https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html - you have pluggable "a la bracha" types.
- enitihas 7y ago
  I think you meant dynamic typing and not dynamic programming.
  - w8rbt 7y ago
    Yes, they are two very different things.
  - inglor 7y ago
    Yes thank you, good catch! Edited, I had a long day of dynamic programming (ironically in Python) and my brain is numb.
- 0815test 7y ago
  > Python is in fact a type safe language for a while now Well it has a typing mechanism, which is better than nothing, but has the mechanism been shown to be safe? C has types too, but I'm not sure that it would be described as type safe.
  - inglor 7y ago
    Showing a typing mechanism to be safe is a very hard thing to do. There are a few methodologies I'm familiar with. What most people think about - formal proof - doesn't work for semi-obvious reasons (as you can easily reduce "is this program safe" to the halting problem). The research I've seen is basically: - Take a class room of independently selected subjects (read: CS undergrad students). - Give them the same coding problem in multiple languages or in the same language with or without compile time type checking. - Measure the number of defects said programs have and hopefully draw a conclusion about the safety of the language. All the research I've read on the topic has been pretty poor (though maybe I'm just bad at finding it). Indeed there is no such research for typed Python (although the pluggalbe types research in general is great) but there is also no such research (that I've found) for Idris, ReasonML, Swift, Haskell, Rust or any of the usual "suspects" for "good types". Please enlighten me :]
mirceal 7y ago
you may be the exception, but most people i’ve met that make this claim have no idea what they are talking about. how would the cases be better suited for a type safe language? what is type safety, in your opinion?

Most of these use cases would be better served with a type safe language.

vturner 7y ago

Down voted you will be, the dynamic typing sheriffs are on the watch ;)

chadash 7y ago
I didn't downvote the parent, but I think that doing so is justified because the comment doesn't add much to the conversation, whether you agree with it or not. To be a substantive comment, it should explain _why_ typed languages would be a better choice for these particular use cases.
- tsss 7y ago
  At this point it should be common sense, there are arguments about this in practically every thread that mentions Python or JS. As much as I hate dynamic typing, there are use-cases where I don't care about it much. What makes Python truly an awful experience in any case is the completely asinine dependency management.
  - mirceal 7y ago
    haha. if you think dependency management is bad in python you should take a look at go :O
coldtea 7y ago
Downvoted grantparent because it's a non-argument comment, that offers nothing to the discussion, and based on nothing.
- ahoka 7y ago
  Just like yours.

sametmax 7y ago

I read a lot of data analysis, prototyping, configuration, monitoring and deployment, for which Python is very, very well suited. So I don't follow how you got there.

bouncing 7y ago

I'm going to start a drinking game every time someone says that.

tclancy 7y ago
You'll want to get on a liver donor list now.
cuddlecake 7y ago
Will you start the game everytime someone says that, or will your game be to drink everytime someone says that? Honestly curious what your methodology is.
- bouncing 7y ago
  Drink every time someone says that. See you at rehab!
luord 7y ago
It's been going on for sixty years (something the defenders of both paradigms often seem to ignore) and will never end, you'll die.

skywhopper 7y ago

This isn't a very useful comment in this form. What aspects of these specific use cases would be better served by a type-safe language? Why is type safety the most important attribute of language choice in this scenario?

throwaway55554 7y ago

Question: If they would be, don't you think Netflix would go that route? "Better" is contextually dependent. There's no silver bullet to anything we do in tech.

jniedrauer 7y ago
> don't you think Netflix would go that route? Not necessarily. Python has a few huge advantages that aren't (directly) related to the quality or utility of the language. For example, hiring and training people to use Python is going to be easier and cheaper than hiring and training people to use C++. Additionally, as mentioned in the article, Python has a massive and healthy ecosystem of high quality packages. And then there's the cost of porting an existing codebase to a new language...
- throwaway55554 7y ago
  Then one could argue Netflix is using the best tool for their purpose, so a type safe language wouldn't be 'better'.
- 781 7y ago
  Netflix are famous for paying the top salaries in the industry, you will take a paycut leaving them. Programmer cost is absolutely not a reason for anything done there. https://www.salaryproject.com/salaries/company/netflix/senior-software-engineer https://www.salaryproject.com/salaries/company/netflix/senio...
- weberc2 7y ago
  You're supporting the parent's point that it's contextually dependant.

inglor 7y ago

You think you're being downvoted because people like dynamic typing very much. You're being downvoted because: A) You left a comment with a strong opinion without expressing it while dismissing other peoples' experience B) Python is in fact a type safe language for a while now https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html - you have pluggable "a la bracha" types.

enitihas 7y ago
I think you meant dynamic typing and not dynamic programming.
- w8rbt 7y ago
  Yes, they are two very different things.
- inglor 7y ago
  Yes thank you, good catch! Edited, I had a long day of dynamic programming (ironically in Python) and my brain is numb.
0815test 7y ago
> Python is in fact a type safe language for a while now Well it has a typing mechanism, which is better than nothing, but has the mechanism been shown to be safe? C has types too, but I'm not sure that it would be described as type safe.
- inglor 7y ago
  Showing a typing mechanism to be safe is a very hard thing to do. There are a few methodologies I'm familiar with. What most people think about - formal proof - doesn't work for semi-obvious reasons (as you can easily reduce "is this program safe" to the halting problem). The research I've seen is basically: - Take a class room of independently selected subjects (read: CS undergrad students). - Give them the same coding problem in multiple languages or in the same language with or without compile time type checking. - Measure the number of defects said programs have and hopefully draw a conclusion about the safety of the language. All the research I've read on the topic has been pretty poor (though maybe I'm just bad at finding it). Indeed there is no such research for typed Python (although the pluggalbe types research in general is great) but there is also no such research (that I've found) for Idris, ReasonML, Swift, Haskell, Rust or any of the usual "suspects" for "good types". Please enlighten me :]

mirceal 7y ago

you may be the exception, but most people i’ve met that make this claim have no idea what they are talking about. how would the cases be better suited for a type safe language? what is type safety, in your opinion?