11 ms·

Calling a real estate robocaller back

116 points by danso 8y ago

tyingq 8y ago
An investigative reporter had no luck figuring out who it was. I'm curious if STIR/SHAKEN makes it possible to find the culprits, or if it just drives them to more niche VoIP providers.
- BenjiWiebe 8y ago
  It will prevent the robocallers from using local numbers to call you without actually buying/renting said numbers.
TuringNYC 8y ago
I've had people wanting to "buy" some property you have. Once they get you to agree to sell, then they ask if you can self-finance the sale (i.e., you become the bank and "sell" for nothing and they give you a monthly mortgage payment.) Sounds OK in theory, but you'd need a lot of paperwork/legal to vet the whole deal and you have no idea if the person can even pay until you spend even more on credit checks, etc. And If at some point they stop paying, you have to spend yet more on foreclosure and all the other stuff real banks have to deal with.
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  >Sounds OK in theory Sounds terrible in theory!
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    It’s not if the income stream and high yield rate from a seller financing deal is more important to you (as the maker of the note) than a lump sum of cash. Everyone has different financial requirements, collateral they’re willing to put at risk, etc. You’re using today’s dollars (or assets) to find ways to buy more of tomorrow’s dollars (“investing”). The paperwork isn’t too difficult to put together either.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      You don’t want to be the “Bank” with only one note tying up a large percentage of your capital. Just ask Donald Trump.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        You do if you need the risk adjusted return and can’t get it elsewhere.
        dymk 8y ago
        I suppose that’s fine if we’re agreeing it’s a last ditch effort
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Jack Boggle and others have stated you’re not getting above 5 percent risk adjusted returns in the public markets over the next decade at least. You can realize 7-10% returns making a note seller financing. I would assume we’re already of the understanding a last ditch effort is necessary to obtain necessary returns.
        URSpider94 8y ago
        I think the issue is diversification. Carrying the note for a buyer can be a decent idea for a developer who owns 100 properties, but probably not if the loan represents 50% of your assets. Calculations like "risk adjusted return" start to fall apart when you get out of continuous statistics and into single-event probabilities ...
    - Jesus_Jones 8y ago
      I can't imagine why this ever would make sense. Only scammers would benefit would accept this, because of the lack of clarity in ownership, it's like a deliberate attempt to circumvent normal financial transactions, which only benefits scammers. It strikes me as the same thing as the fake-check auto purchase scams that infest different on-line auto sales channels.
  - wolco 8y ago
    Not with a 20% down payment.
- segmondy 8y ago
  They want to rent, but with foreclosure protection. If they rent and don't pay, you can evict in 2 months. If they do this and don't pay, good luck evicting in 2 years.
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    I'd ask for 25% down and 20% interest, and write quicker eviction for non-payment into the security instrument, as a separate civil action from a foreclosure. ...and then, I'd re-sell the note to a rich person/company who can afford better lawyers, because I don't really need my assets pinned down like that in one high-risk loan.
danso 8y ago
There's an idea for a dystopian comedy skit somewhere in this: > Will’s so busy leaving messages all over town that he never answers the phone when you call him back...Sometimes calls were forwarded to a host of people who went by “Pat.” They said they worked for PATLive, an answering service firm that takes calls for businesses when they’re busy or closed. Pats were taking messages for “Steven’s Office” in Alexandria, Virginia. > Asked why there were several Pats, a Pat said: “We’re all Pat.” > “We all go by Pat to keep it easy,” said Pat. “But we do have some Pats in the office.”
- tyingq 8y ago
  I read their "how it works" and other pages, and the sales pitch isn't bad. They should be more selective about clients though. https://www.patlive.com https://www.patlive.com
  - FussyZeus 8y ago
    Am I the only one who thinks this is bullshit? How is PATLive not also complicit in the crimes they're looking for "Will" to prosecute in? I get so tired of these B2B service providers who get caught up doing borderline illegal shit and then just shrug their shoulders and say "not our responsibility." Everybody has these clauses doing the ass covering so they can sell services to anyone who knocks and they're never held responsible because of some bullshit contract. WHY is that allowed? You're doing business with an individual/organization that is breaking the law, and you know it, or you would know it if you cared to look. That's gotta be at least worth a charge of negligence? I'm just saying the "Will"s of the modern era would have a much harder time if the call centers, teleco providers, internet hosters, etc. were held responsible when they were found to be operating in cahoots with a scammer and I don't understand why they aren't. Vet your fucking clients. And if you don't wanna do that, then shut your doors.
    - kbenson 8y ago
      That's like a PO Box location being liable for someone's fraud, or even a software or hardware provider, like Microsoft or Dell, being liable for providing assistance in the crime. It's an answering service for a phone line. Are they supposed to magically know that the people are calling from some robocall and not because it's a semi-large real estate office somewhere? Perhaps the best way to to let them know is to inform them. Then they have a choice to make, investigate whether the accusations are true and decide whether to continue providing service. At that point, they may actually be responsible for something.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Etheryte 8y ago
Forgive me for being out of the loop here, but why is it so hard to make this business unprofitable and easily trackable? For any kind of contracted relations as mentioned in the article (automatic call centers etc), the law enforcement can get a trace. For off-the-shelf temporary SIM cards, make them rate limited and block them when a complaint is filed. Is there something I'm missing here? Given the numbers, this seems like a huge problem, is there simply no incentive to solve it?
- tyingq 8y ago
  The patlive.com service does seem to be the obvious place to track down who their lawbreaking client is. It's a US company, which was probably a mistake. I assume "Will" could have contracted with a service outside the US. On the plus side, patlive.com charges $1/minute as their cheapest plan. Robodialing them back, with a sufficiently clever script, would be costly for "Will".
  - criddell 8y ago
    I looked at PatLive's FAQ and there's no contract required. You pay by Visa, MC, or AMEX. If you can use a reloadable card then they probably don't know who you are.
    - Jesus_Jones 8y ago
      Since the patlive service and all those 'answering services' that you get are basically faciliating a scam, I'm sure a serious prosecutor could get a court order telling them to pass the information on that they had about the underlying person. If it was a reloadable card, you can still figure it out with more effort. You threaten to sue them into oblivion as facilitating criminal actions, and you get them to get you on a real phone number with the scammer, and then you track them down that way. You just have to try harder. A reporter could pursue this by getting a job with that firm and tracking backwards.
- jjoonathan 8y ago
  Foreign telecoms make good money looking the other way on spam. They mix in enough legitimate users that the rest of the world can't just block them without, e.g., also blocking the entire Indian subcontinent. We may get there. It'll probably take the form of deploying STIR/SHAKEN on the US side and making engagement with anyone who doesn't implement it purely opt-in.
Mashimo 8y ago
Why are Robocalls so common in the US, but not in other countries?
- temp1831 8y ago
  The U.S. has more rich suckers to prey on.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    At first glance this comment might seem shallow, but I think we can unpack it a bit. 1. It’s probably correct? The US is a very large single market 2. From some quarters the US does come across as being fairly laissez-faire 3. The scale of predatory economic activity in an otherwise highly developed economy is(?) unmatched 4. Penalties seem to be a cost of business rather than genuine attempts at deterrent 5. The general appearance of a lack of accountability But, I’m just looking on from afar, and I’m sure the media advances the hyperbole.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Because unsolicited calls are not legal in other countries
  - AndyMcConachie 8y ago
    They're often not legal in the US either, but it isn't enforced. It has more to do with enforcement than it does legality.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- onion2k 8y ago
  Here in the UK they died out about 20 years ago when our Data Protection Act came in to force and stated companies could only call people who had given them prior permission. Calls still happen (either illegally from UK companies or from overseas companies to whom the UK law doesn't apply) but they're much less common.
taborj 8y ago
Not sure if this is carrier-specific, but the phones my family uses will receive robocalls, but they come in with the name "Scam Likely." So somewhere, someone is keeping track of the various numbers that are used in a list, and using that to alter the carrier ID information to our benefit. It doesn't catch all, but it hasn't incorrectly flagged one yet.
- eitland 8y ago
  Google does on my phone. Sometimes it will ask me after a call if it was spam. Works surprisingly well considering it is Google in 2019, but now that I think of it I can see a number of ways they'll mess up this as well ;-)
  - criddell 8y ago
    I use Google's Call Screen service. It answers the call and tells the caller to state their name and reason for calling. The response shows up on my screen as text and I can decide to pick up at any time. 99% of the time, the call just disconnects. I really wish Google would let me set my phone to ring only for numbers in my address book and give everybody else a busy signal.
    - tehlike 8y ago
      On android, you can go to settings of the caller app, and enable "filter spam calls". Not exactly the same thing but still... You might have some trouble if you are a fi user.
      - criddell 8y ago
        I am a fi user. The problem with settings like that is it still lets the call go to voicemail and I don't want to deal dozens of 4 second messages every week.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- 8y ago
ianhawes 8y ago
“Will” doesn’t want to buy your house. Will wants to collect the lead, determine how appealing the property is, and sell the lead to someone local. Will isn’t touching that property with a 10 foot pole. Phil on the other hand, just bought the lead and will make a lowball offer. Oh, and "Will" on the voicemail isn't Will either. It's a voice actor off of Fiverr that likely has no idea their voice is being used for this scheme.
mtw 8y ago
does everyone has a subscription to Philly? I've never been to the site and wants me to pay to read 1 article
- RandallBrown 8y ago
  I was able to see the article without any issue. There was a banner telling me I should subscribe, but that was it.
  - mtw 8y ago
    Changing to Firefox worked. It seems Philly is able to work around privacy mode in Safari.
    - ilikehurdles 8y ago
      I've noticed that certain newspaper-oriented sites (like the Denver post) ask you to subscribe if it detects you're running in incognito mode. That said, I viewed this page in incognito on chrome without issue.
CHsurfer 8y ago
I want a phone service that automatically charges the caller a small amount ($1-$2). I can waive the charger for known numbers. Each time an unknown caller calls, I get an SMS right after the call to waive the charge for this and all subsequent calls or to proceed with the charge.
- lemcoe9 8y ago
  And how would you expect to collect on any of that?
  - jrockway 8y ago
    I think it's easy, right? Forward your number to a voice that says, "to call me, please type your credit card number on the keypad. a charge of $2 will apply." If they pay, you connect the call. If they don't pay, the call disconnects. Easy. Nobody will call you, of course, including spammers.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      Why not just not have a phone line, instead of inexplicably paying for a service to not have a service?
      - jrockway 8y ago
        I think the point is to send a message.
        SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        And that message is "Don't call me."
    - 13of40 8y ago
      How about "Please press 7 to prove you're not a robot."
devm0de 8y ago
What many of these real estate investors do is have a phone number on their bandit signs or use in their robodialer voice mails that forwards to the answering service. That phone number might be provided by services like callfire or callrail where you can generate lists of numbers. Some services let you script all actions. Callfire allows for things like enabling recording on the call forward (potentially illegal) when someone calls it. Then investor themselves or pays a virtual assistant like $3hr to sift through all those calls for any potential leads. You can hear the entire call to patlive if you wanted to. Or they just trust patlive to forward messages as they’re the answering service. So long as your answering service or where you’re generating your numbers doesn’t blow your cover then you can keep this game up for a long time. That’s what these answering services are trained to do is protect their clients identities. But I doubt that holds up when the FTC comes knocking.
NoblePublius 8y ago
Can someone explain why it’s so easy to spoof caller ID? And can someone else explain why spoofing caller ID isn’t a felony worthy of life imprisonment?
- herodotus 8y ago
  The telephony protocol permits owners of a local telephone exchange (any setting with many internal phones) to display a chosen number in the caller-id field. The intent was that outgoing calls would appear to come from the general number of the organization, rather than the individual who actually placed the outgoing call. Unfortunately, when this was designed, no thought was given to the possibility of (now widespread) abuse. One cannot completely blame the original designers: when they did their work, telephony was essentially a closed system controlled by a handful of large telephony companies. The rise of using the internet as a transport medium was not something they could have anticipated: there was no internet back then!
- rand0mthought 8y ago
  You are probably banned in Google, so there is link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caller_ID_spoofing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caller_ID_spoofing
- cr0sh 8y ago
  Not that this explains it, but IIRC, caller ID information is sent (or was, at one time with land lines) "out of band", in a particular data format, that occurs between the first and second rings. IIRC, it's done using frequencies that either can't be heard (ie, outside the freq response of the phone), or the sound is "switched off" between rings (quite possibly this, since the "ring" voltage is completely different from the "line-in-use" voltage - so this voltage change can be detected and switch the signaling as needed). At any rate, it's a known thing, and if you understand how it works, it's possible (well, again, was - for land line phones) to build a box that can inject these signals between the rings so the phone being called will display it. Normally, this is done (IIRC) by the CO, but I think if the info is already there, it doesn't override it. I might be completely wrong, though; it's been a couple of decades since I last read about how it worked; also, I have no idea how it works in cell-phone land, but likely it hasn't changed because "inertia" and having to support older land-line phones...
mtw 8y ago
I'm seriously contemplating cancelling my cell plan. The annoyance I get from robocalls spam (plus monthly cost) is far greater than the utility. Relatives and close friends can always send messages through other services
- drb91 8y ago
  I believe you can disable incoming calls at the telecom level. Not sure who offers this but I do some phone banking and run into this about 1/100 calls. Apple really needs a way to enable permanent do not disturb for just phone calls, ie your phone only rings if you are in the contacts.
  - dmix 8y ago
    > Apple really needs a way to enable permanent do not disturb for just phone calls, ie your phone only rings if you are in the contacts. That's a really great feature idea. I hope someone here who works at Apple or Google reads it.
herodotus 8y ago
There is an effort underway to end spoofing. It is called Caller ID Authentication. See https://www.fcc.gov/call-authentication https://www.fcc.gov/call-authentication
mothsonasloth 8y ago
In the UK I get robocallers phoning me about car accidents or triple glazing grants. I always say "yes", then you get a real person who picks up. Then I will do the old bait and switch. Start talking about how my car got written off after the great M25 exodus of 2018. That I lost my foot from a low flying scooter delivery driver. The story then becomes more and more ridiculous and eventually they will hang up. Since opting for this tactic my phone call count has gone down considerably.
- bgeeek 8y ago
  Yep, these are the ones we get. I detest the way in which they say "hello" and leave a pause, expecting you to say something back. At first it made me feel silly for having been tricked into a natural response. Now, we just don't answer the phone anymore...
- blang 8y ago
  I've heard the opposite can happen, if you respond and stay on for a while, you are marked as a real and active number and will get more calls.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    This is true. Your number is marked as real/responsive and recycled, sometimes resold.
- rscho 8y ago
  Even more cruel: say yes, listen to the start of the spiel, then gently lay the phone down. They'll call back not knowing if it was a line malfunction. Now rinse and repeat. I got some so angry that they threatened to come over and break my face at home. This technique has up to now never failed me.
  - braindouche 8y ago
    I once decided to talk with a "Hi this is Windows your computer wanted me to tell you it has a virus" guy once, and he's going through his script, trying to determine whether I have a Windows box or a Mac by describing whether I have a command key or a win key on my keyboard. My fancy-pants programmer keyboard happens to have neither, but in trying to explain this to him, he got so mad I literally heard him throwing things off his desk, last of which being the phone itself. I assume my family is still cursed, though I never took his physically improbable suggestions.
cr0sh 8y ago
Just going to throw out the call/sms blocker I use and love: https://github.com/kaliturin/BlackList https://github.com/kaliturin/BlackList I have no connection to the software other than being a satisfied user. Yes, it's open source. Yes it's Android only. Yes, it's SMS app is bare-bones. And the UI is ugly. That's the tradeoff for this kind of thing. It's a shame there isn't an active development community around it making it so much better. The basics are all there and they work great. Mainly if the UI was updated, and certain "extras" were added to the SMS app (for me, that'd be emoji/smiley usage and photo upload/download) - it would be perfect. But I'm willing to put up with the "bad" to gain the "good" parts of the app.
sara27362 8y ago
Even you can't believe there is a hen in world's biggest animals See the video how they looks and what they do https://cutt.ly/1rOU7Q https://cutt.ly/1rOU7Q Fish walking with legs like humans See the video on link below http://bit.ly/2XRGyYD http://bit.ly/2XRGyYD This couple is different Girls are both twins and boys are also twin brothers see how they look in video http://bit.ly/2VwoZQd http://bit.ly/2VwoZQd A cute dog is dancing in video Just watch this video and try to control your laugh http://bit.ly/2ZK1XVs http://bit.ly/2ZK1XVs
billyt555 8y ago
Is it just me or does this article end mid-thought?
gnicholas 8y ago
I regularly receive calls from an agent at a reputable (or at least I used to think) brokerage here in Silicon Valley. They use the typical trick of calling you twice simultaneously, so the second call can go straight to your VM box. The message was boiler plate: "we're looking for a home in your neighborhood for a client, but inventory is very thin as you know so we're wondering if you know anyone who might be open to selling." The thing is, there were 3 houses for sale on my street at the time, so it was immediately clear this wasn't based on an actual client. I had recently spoken with an agent from this brokerage firm and I sent her a follow-up email to let her know that her colleague's (illegal) shenanigans were undercutting her company's reputation.
fpgaminer 8y ago
We all hate robocallers and scammers. We all hate getting called every day by them. But did you know there's something worse? My wife recently discovered a not so fun side effect of spam calls... Scammers have this popular trick of spoofing the caller ID for a number local to you. People are more likely to pick up the call if it's a number that seems familiar to them (like, the first 6 digits are the same as your phone number). I've known about this trick, but I never really thought about the collateral damage. See ... that number they're faking is a _real_ phone number. And it's someone else's phone number. It's not the scammer's number. Well my wife's phone number got used. You wouldn't believe the number of people who call scammers back! She was getting hundreds of calls a day; non-stop. Most people were calling back trying to figure out who called them. Some were angry. A few threatened her with violence. And there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. You can't stop someone from spoofing your phone number on Caller ID. You can't stop people from mistakenly calling "you" back. You're just stuck in phone hell. The only solution is to change your phone number ... not really a great option. It lasted about a week; we resorted to just keeping her phone on Do Not Disturb. What a nightmare.
- softwaredoug 8y ago
  I’m totally ignorant here, so I’m sure there’s a good reason: why is secure caller id so hard?
  - cobbzilla 8y ago
    The telephone network was designed with total trust for “network operators” who essentially have “root” to do anything. This worked OK when the only operators were the various national phone monopolies (Cap’n Crunch notwithstanding), but today that level of access is much easier to get and abuse, and is difficult to trace. There are efforts to bolt-on security to the telephone network but it’s really hard. I think it’s more likely that (over the next handful of decades) the phone network fades into obscurity as more voice calls are connected over data links which offer much improved security models.
    - bostonpete 8y ago
MagicPropmaker 8y ago
Why is it so hard to catch them? Can't the FTC set up a house sale, and when the buyer presents himself at closing, have him arrested? Eventually the buyer needs to be available to close the sale. I suppose it can all be done electronically (I bought property with an electronic closing) but for the demographic they're trying to market from, electronic signatures and document handling may not be easy. Someone will have to meet with them, and there an arrest can be made (for the robocalling).
uptown 8y ago
I tracked down one of these robocallers once. I'd been getting multiple calls a day from the same number. The number was tied to a business name, which had an old domain name registry in some online index. From there, I was able to find the original domain name purchaser name and phone number. I also found his Facebook page, with poor privacy settings - and a few other details about the guy. So I gave him a call. He was very surprised to get a call - but listened, and accepted that a phone call wasn't where I'd stop if his calls continued. They stopped that day.
whenchamenia 8y ago
"Hello this is Lenny..."

116 points by danso 8y ago

An investigative reporter had no luck figuring out who it was. I'm curious if STIR/SHAKEN makes it possible to find the culprits, or if it just drives them to more niche VoIP providers.

BenjiWiebe 8y ago
It will prevent the robocallers from using local numbers to call you without actually buying/renting said numbers.

TuringNYC 8y ago

I've had people wanting to "buy" some property you have. Once they get you to agree to sell, then they ask if you can self-finance the sale (i.e., you become the bank and "sell" for nothing and they give you a monthly mortgage payment.) Sounds OK in theory, but you'd need a lot of paperwork/legal to vet the whole deal and you have no idea if the person can even pay until you spend even more on credit checks, etc. And If at some point they stop paying, you have to spend yet more on foreclosure and all the other stuff real banks have to deal with.

nmeofthestate 8y ago
>Sounds OK in theory Sounds terrible in theory!
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  It’s not if the income stream and high yield rate from a seller financing deal is more important to you (as the maker of the note) than a lump sum of cash. Everyone has different financial requirements, collateral they’re willing to put at risk, etc. You’re using today’s dollars (or assets) to find ways to buy more of tomorrow’s dollars (“investing”). The paperwork isn’t too difficult to put together either.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    You don’t want to be the “Bank” with only one note tying up a large percentage of your capital. Just ask Donald Trump.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      You do if you need the risk adjusted return and can’t get it elsewhere.
      - dymk 8y ago
        I suppose that’s fine if we’re agreeing it’s a last ditch effort
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Jack Boggle and others have stated you’re not getting above 5 percent risk adjusted returns in the public markets over the next decade at least. You can realize 7-10% returns making a note seller financing. I would assume we’re already of the understanding a last ditch effort is necessary to obtain necessary returns.
      - URSpider94 8y ago
        I think the issue is diversification. Carrying the note for a buyer can be a decent idea for a developer who owns 100 properties, but probably not if the loan represents 50% of your assets. Calculations like "risk adjusted return" start to fall apart when you get out of continuous statistics and into single-event probabilities ...
  - Jesus_Jones 8y ago
    I can't imagine why this ever would make sense. Only scammers would benefit would accept this, because of the lack of clarity in ownership, it's like a deliberate attempt to circumvent normal financial transactions, which only benefits scammers. It strikes me as the same thing as the fake-check auto purchase scams that infest different on-line auto sales channels.
- wolco 8y ago
  Not with a 20% down payment.
segmondy 8y ago
They want to rent, but with foreclosure protection. If they rent and don't pay, you can evict in 2 months. If they do this and don't pay, good luck evicting in 2 years.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  I'd ask for 25% down and 20% interest, and write quicker eviction for non-payment into the security instrument, as a separate civil action from a foreclosure. ...and then, I'd re-sell the note to a rich person/company who can afford better lawyers, because I don't really need my assets pinned down like that in one high-risk loan.

danso 8y ago

There's an idea for a dystopian comedy skit somewhere in this: > Will’s so busy leaving messages all over town that he never answers the phone when you call him back...Sometimes calls were forwarded to a host of people who went by “Pat.” They said they worked for PATLive, an answering service firm that takes calls for businesses when they’re busy or closed. Pats were taking messages for “Steven’s Office” in Alexandria, Virginia. > Asked why there were several Pats, a Pat said: “We’re all Pat.” > “We all go by Pat to keep it easy,” said Pat. “But we do have some Pats in the office.”

tyingq 8y ago
I read their "how it works" and other pages, and the sales pitch isn't bad. They should be more selective about clients though. https://www.patlive.com https://www.patlive.com
- FussyZeus 8y ago
  Am I the only one who thinks this is bullshit? How is PATLive not also complicit in the crimes they're looking for "Will" to prosecute in? I get so tired of these B2B service providers who get caught up doing borderline illegal shit and then just shrug their shoulders and say "not our responsibility." Everybody has these clauses doing the ass covering so they can sell services to anyone who knocks and they're never held responsible because of some bullshit contract. WHY is that allowed? You're doing business with an individual/organization that is breaking the law, and you know it, or you would know it if you cared to look. That's gotta be at least worth a charge of negligence? I'm just saying the "Will"s of the modern era would have a much harder time if the call centers, teleco providers, internet hosters, etc. were held responsible when they were found to be operating in cahoots with a scammer and I don't understand why they aren't. Vet your fucking clients. And if you don't wanna do that, then shut your doors.
  - kbenson 8y ago
    That's like a PO Box location being liable for someone's fraud, or even a software or hardware provider, like Microsoft or Dell, being liable for providing assistance in the crime. It's an answering service for a phone line. Are they supposed to magically know that the people are calling from some robocall and not because it's a semi-large real estate office somewhere? Perhaps the best way to to let them know is to inform them. Then they have a choice to make, investigate whether the accusations are true and decide whether to continue providing service. At that point, they may actually be responsible for something.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Etheryte 8y ago

Forgive me for being out of the loop here, but why is it so hard to make this business unprofitable and easily trackable? For any kind of contracted relations as mentioned in the article (automatic call centers etc), the law enforcement can get a trace. For off-the-shelf temporary SIM cards, make them rate limited and block them when a complaint is filed. Is there something I'm missing here? Given the numbers, this seems like a huge problem, is there simply no incentive to solve it?

tyingq 8y ago
The patlive.com service does seem to be the obvious place to track down who their lawbreaking client is. It's a US company, which was probably a mistake. I assume "Will" could have contracted with a service outside the US. On the plus side, patlive.com charges $1/minute as their cheapest plan. Robodialing them back, with a sufficiently clever script, would be costly for "Will".
- criddell 8y ago
  I looked at PatLive's FAQ and there's no contract required. You pay by Visa, MC, or AMEX. If you can use a reloadable card then they probably don't know who you are.
  - Jesus_Jones 8y ago
    Since the patlive service and all those 'answering services' that you get are basically faciliating a scam, I'm sure a serious prosecutor could get a court order telling them to pass the information on that they had about the underlying person. If it was a reloadable card, you can still figure it out with more effort. You threaten to sue them into oblivion as facilitating criminal actions, and you get them to get you on a real phone number with the scammer, and then you track them down that way. You just have to try harder. A reporter could pursue this by getting a job with that firm and tracking backwards.
jjoonathan 8y ago
Foreign telecoms make good money looking the other way on spam. They mix in enough legitimate users that the rest of the world can't just block them without, e.g., also blocking the entire Indian subcontinent. We may get there. It'll probably take the form of deploying STIR/SHAKEN on the US side and making engagement with anyone who doesn't implement it purely opt-in.

Mashimo 8y ago

Why are Robocalls so common in the US, but not in other countries?

temp1831 8y ago
The U.S. has more rich suckers to prey on.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  At first glance this comment might seem shallow, but I think we can unpack it a bit. 1. It’s probably correct? The US is a very large single market 2. From some quarters the US does come across as being fairly laissez-faire 3. The scale of predatory economic activity in an otherwise highly developed economy is(?) unmatched 4. Penalties seem to be a cost of business rather than genuine attempts at deterrent 5. The general appearance of a lack of accountability But, I’m just looking on from afar, and I’m sure the media advances the hyperbole.
TomMarius 8y ago
Because unsolicited calls are not legal in other countries
- AndyMcConachie 8y ago
  They're often not legal in the US either, but it isn't enforced. It has more to do with enforcement than it does legality.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
onion2k 8y ago
Here in the UK they died out about 20 years ago when our Data Protection Act came in to force and stated companies could only call people who had given them prior permission. Calls still happen (either illegally from UK companies or from overseas companies to whom the UK law doesn't apply) but they're much less common.

taborj 8y ago

Not sure if this is carrier-specific, but the phones my family uses will receive robocalls, but they come in with the name "Scam Likely." So somewhere, someone is keeping track of the various numbers that are used in a list, and using that to alter the carrier ID information to our benefit. It doesn't catch all, but it hasn't incorrectly flagged one yet.

eitland 8y ago
Google does on my phone. Sometimes it will ask me after a call if it was spam. Works surprisingly well considering it is Google in 2019, but now that I think of it I can see a number of ways they'll mess up this as well ;-)
- criddell 8y ago
  I use Google's Call Screen service. It answers the call and tells the caller to state their name and reason for calling. The response shows up on my screen as text and I can decide to pick up at any time. 99% of the time, the call just disconnects. I really wish Google would let me set my phone to ring only for numbers in my address book and give everybody else a busy signal.
  - tehlike 8y ago
    On android, you can go to settings of the caller app, and enable "filter spam calls". Not exactly the same thing but still... You might have some trouble if you are a fi user.
    - criddell 8y ago
      I am a fi user. The problem with settings like that is it still lets the call go to voicemail and I don't want to deal dozens of 4 second messages every week.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
8y ago

ianhawes 8y ago

“Will” doesn’t want to buy your house. Will wants to collect the lead, determine how appealing the property is, and sell the lead to someone local. Will isn’t touching that property with a 10 foot pole. Phil on the other hand, just bought the lead and will make a lowball offer. Oh, and "Will" on the voicemail isn't Will either. It's a voice actor off of Fiverr that likely has no idea their voice is being used for this scheme.

mtw 8y ago

does everyone has a subscription to Philly? I've never been to the site and wants me to pay to read 1 article

RandallBrown 8y ago
I was able to see the article without any issue. There was a banner telling me I should subscribe, but that was it.
- mtw 8y ago
  Changing to Firefox worked. It seems Philly is able to work around privacy mode in Safari.
  - ilikehurdles 8y ago
    I've noticed that certain newspaper-oriented sites (like the Denver post) ask you to subscribe if it detects you're running in incognito mode. That said, I viewed this page in incognito on chrome without issue.

CHsurfer 8y ago

I want a phone service that automatically charges the caller a small amount ($1-$2). I can waive the charger for known numbers. Each time an unknown caller calls, I get an SMS right after the call to waive the charge for this and all subsequent calls or to proceed with the charge.

lemcoe9 8y ago
And how would you expect to collect on any of that?
- jrockway 8y ago
  I think it's easy, right? Forward your number to a voice that says, "to call me, please type your credit card number on the keypad. a charge of $2 will apply." If they pay, you connect the call. If they don't pay, the call disconnects. Easy. Nobody will call you, of course, including spammers.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    Why not just not have a phone line, instead of inexplicably paying for a service to not have a service?
    - jrockway 8y ago
      I think the point is to send a message.
      - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        And that message is "Don't call me."
  - 13of40 8y ago
    How about "Please press 7 to prove you're not a robot."

devm0de 8y ago

What many of these real estate investors do is have a phone number on their bandit signs or use in their robodialer voice mails that forwards to the answering service. That phone number might be provided by services like callfire or callrail where you can generate lists of numbers. Some services let you script all actions. Callfire allows for things like enabling recording on the call forward (potentially illegal) when someone calls it. Then investor themselves or pays a virtual assistant like $3hr to sift through all those calls for any potential leads. You can hear the entire call to patlive if you wanted to. Or they just trust patlive to forward messages as they’re the answering service. So long as your answering service or where you’re generating your numbers doesn’t blow your cover then you can keep this game up for a long time. That’s what these answering services are trained to do is protect their clients identities. But I doubt that holds up when the FTC comes knocking.

NoblePublius 8y ago

Can someone explain why it’s so easy to spoof caller ID? And can someone else explain why spoofing caller ID isn’t a felony worthy of life imprisonment?

herodotus 8y ago
The telephony protocol permits owners of a local telephone exchange (any setting with many internal phones) to display a chosen number in the caller-id field. The intent was that outgoing calls would appear to come from the general number of the organization, rather than the individual who actually placed the outgoing call. Unfortunately, when this was designed, no thought was given to the possibility of (now widespread) abuse. One cannot completely blame the original designers: when they did their work, telephony was essentially a closed system controlled by a handful of large telephony companies. The rise of using the internet as a transport medium was not something they could have anticipated: there was no internet back then!
rand0mthought 8y ago
You are probably banned in Google, so there is link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caller_ID_spoofing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caller_ID_spoofing
cr0sh 8y ago
Not that this explains it, but IIRC, caller ID information is sent (or was, at one time with land lines) "out of band", in a particular data format, that occurs between the first and second rings. IIRC, it's done using frequencies that either can't be heard (ie, outside the freq response of the phone), or the sound is "switched off" between rings (quite possibly this, since the "ring" voltage is completely different from the "line-in-use" voltage - so this voltage change can be detected and switch the signaling as needed). At any rate, it's a known thing, and if you understand how it works, it's possible (well, again, was - for land line phones) to build a box that can inject these signals between the rings so the phone being called will display it. Normally, this is done (IIRC) by the CO, but I think if the info is already there, it doesn't override it. I might be completely wrong, though; it's been a couple of decades since I last read about how it worked; also, I have no idea how it works in cell-phone land, but likely it hasn't changed because "inertia" and having to support older land-line phones...

mtw 8y ago

I'm seriously contemplating cancelling my cell plan. The annoyance I get from robocalls spam (plus monthly cost) is far greater than the utility. Relatives and close friends can always send messages through other services

drb91 8y ago
I believe you can disable incoming calls at the telecom level. Not sure who offers this but I do some phone banking and run into this about 1/100 calls. Apple really needs a way to enable permanent do not disturb for just phone calls, ie your phone only rings if you are in the contacts.
- dmix 8y ago
  > Apple really needs a way to enable permanent do not disturb for just phone calls, ie your phone only rings if you are in the contacts. That's a really great feature idea. I hope someone here who works at Apple or Google reads it.

herodotus 8y ago

There is an effort underway to end spoofing. It is called Caller ID Authentication. See https://www.fcc.gov/call-authentication https://www.fcc.gov/call-authentication

mothsonasloth 8y ago

In the UK I get robocallers phoning me about car accidents or triple glazing grants. I always say "yes", then you get a real person who picks up. Then I will do the old bait and switch. Start talking about how my car got written off after the great M25 exodus of 2018. That I lost my foot from a low flying scooter delivery driver. The story then becomes more and more ridiculous and eventually they will hang up. Since opting for this tactic my phone call count has gone down considerably.

bgeeek 8y ago
Yep, these are the ones we get. I detest the way in which they say "hello" and leave a pause, expecting you to say something back. At first it made me feel silly for having been tricked into a natural response. Now, we just don't answer the phone anymore...
blang 8y ago
I've heard the opposite can happen, if you respond and stay on for a while, you are marked as a real and active number and will get more calls.
- bduerst 8y ago
  This is true. Your number is marked as real/responsive and recycled, sometimes resold.
rscho 8y ago
Even more cruel: say yes, listen to the start of the spiel, then gently lay the phone down. They'll call back not knowing if it was a line malfunction. Now rinse and repeat. I got some so angry that they threatened to come over and break my face at home. This technique has up to now never failed me.
- braindouche 8y ago
  I once decided to talk with a "Hi this is Windows your computer wanted me to tell you it has a virus" guy once, and he's going through his script, trying to determine whether I have a Windows box or a Mac by describing whether I have a command key or a win key on my keyboard. My fancy-pants programmer keyboard happens to have neither, but in trying to explain this to him, he got so mad I literally heard him throwing things off his desk, last of which being the phone itself. I assume my family is still cursed, though I never took his physically improbable suggestions.

cr0sh 8y ago

Just going to throw out the call/sms blocker I use and love: https://github.com/kaliturin/BlackList https://github.com/kaliturin/BlackList I have no connection to the software other than being a satisfied user. Yes, it's open source. Yes it's Android only. Yes, it's SMS app is bare-bones. And the UI is ugly. That's the tradeoff for this kind of thing. It's a shame there isn't an active development community around it making it so much better. The basics are all there and they work great. Mainly if the UI was updated, and certain "extras" were added to the SMS app (for me, that'd be emoji/smiley usage and photo upload/download) - it would be perfect. But I'm willing to put up with the "bad" to gain the "good" parts of the app.

sara27362 8y ago

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billyt555 8y ago

Is it just me or does this article end mid-thought?

gnicholas 8y ago

I regularly receive calls from an agent at a reputable (or at least I used to think) brokerage here in Silicon Valley. They use the typical trick of calling you twice simultaneously, so the second call can go straight to your VM box. The message was boiler plate: "we're looking for a home in your neighborhood for a client, but inventory is very thin as you know so we're wondering if you know anyone who might be open to selling." The thing is, there were 3 houses for sale on my street at the time, so it was immediately clear this wasn't based on an actual client. I had recently spoken with an agent from this brokerage firm and I sent her a follow-up email to let her know that her colleague's (illegal) shenanigans were undercutting her company's reputation.

fpgaminer 8y ago

We all hate robocallers and scammers. We all hate getting called every day by them. But did you know there's something worse? My wife recently discovered a not so fun side effect of spam calls... Scammers have this popular trick of spoofing the caller ID for a number local to you. People are more likely to pick up the call if it's a number that seems familiar to them (like, the first 6 digits are the same as your phone number). I've known about this trick, but I never really thought about the collateral damage. See ... that number they're faking is a _real_ phone number. And it's someone else's phone number. It's not the scammer's number. Well my wife's phone number got used. You wouldn't believe the number of people who call scammers back! She was getting hundreds of calls a day; non-stop. Most people were calling back trying to figure out who called them. Some were angry. A few threatened her with violence. And there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. You can't stop someone from spoofing your phone number on Caller ID. You can't stop people from mistakenly calling "you" back. You're just stuck in phone hell. The only solution is to change your phone number ... not really a great option. It lasted about a week; we resorted to just keeping her phone on Do Not Disturb. What a nightmare.

softwaredoug 8y ago
I’m totally ignorant here, so I’m sure there’s a good reason: why is secure caller id so hard?
- cobbzilla 8y ago
  The telephone network was designed with total trust for “network operators” who essentially have “root” to do anything. This worked OK when the only operators were the various national phone monopolies (Cap’n Crunch notwithstanding), but today that level of access is much easier to get and abuse, and is difficult to trace. There are efforts to bolt-on security to the telephone network but it’s really hard. I think it’s more likely that (over the next handful of decades) the phone network fades into obscurity as more voice calls are connected over data links which offer much improved security models.
  - bostonpete 8y ago

MagicPropmaker 8y ago

Why is it so hard to catch them? Can't the FTC set up a house sale, and when the buyer presents himself at closing, have him arrested? Eventually the buyer needs to be available to close the sale. I suppose it can all be done electronically (I bought property with an electronic closing) but for the demographic they're trying to market from, electronic signatures and document handling may not be easy. Someone will have to meet with them, and there an arrest can be made (for the robocalling).

uptown 8y ago

I tracked down one of these robocallers once. I'd been getting multiple calls a day from the same number. The number was tied to a business name, which had an old domain name registry in some online index. From there, I was able to find the original domain name purchaser name and phone number. I also found his Facebook page, with poor privacy settings - and a few other details about the guy. So I gave him a call. He was very surprised to get a call - but listened, and accepted that a phone call wasn't where I'd stop if his calls continued. They stopped that day.

whenchamenia 8y ago

"Hello this is Lenny..."