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> there are quite a few non-dairy creamers that work great As someone who has tried a lot of non-dairy creamers, I have yet to find a single one that "works gr

by hnarn 8y ago

> there are quite a few non-dairy creamers that work great As someone who has tried a lot of non-dairy creamers, I have yet to find a single one that "works great". There's something very characteristic about both the taste and the consistency of milk and most replacement products are nowhere close. That's not to say milk is irreplaceable for all applications, but there's a tendency to over-hype healthy and organic replacement products that try to be "just as good" because we all want a sustainable, healthy replacement without sacrificing anything at all, but belying reality is hardly going to get us there. Personally, I feel more attracted to the idea that it's better to do something than nothing at all. You don't have to go vegan tomorrow, if people just ate less meat and started thinking about this type of stuff as a luxury and not a right, we would've come a long way. Personally, milk in my coffee is non-negotiable. Bacon for breakfast? Well, I hardly need it every day, or even every week, so I'm open to discuss frequency.

duxup 8y ago
Yeah my experience too is that the non dairy creamers.... taste very much like non dairy creamers. That's not necessarily bad if you like that, there are lots of product substitutes that to a good job in their own right even if they aren't what they intended to replace. I cook and there are all sorts of good products that historically were intended to replace or augment something else and do their own thing well. But as far as non dairy creamers go, it's just no a replacement for actual milk for me. Two similar, but noticeably different things.
wallace_f 8y ago
I'm unsure of the ethics of milk as food. Do milk cows live good lives? Can they? I've researched, and haven't come to a firm conclusion, but I'm not as alarmed by it, in relative terms. Could be bias. Dairy is my most-favoured food. Cheese, milk, yogurt, butter...
- tomstoms 8y ago
  Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life, hooked up to a machine that sucks your calves food out of you, while they are dragged away for slaughter or to join the crew. After a handful lactations, or if you don’t produce enough, or you’re sick too often, you’re slaughtered too. Most of the time you’re indoors walking around in your own feces. Sound like a good life to you?
  - simion314 8y ago
    >Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life Can you explain this to me, I only know how this is on farms, the cow will be in heat 1 time a year, I mean it is natural to the cows, you can't impregnate them if they are not in heat and if it was a wild cow she would still get as pregnant as often. But maybe is the industrial way something else is happening? Let me know so I understand your point
    - Forbo 8y ago
      You most certainly can impregnate a cow that is unwilling. The following article is definitely biased, but the point still stands that the animals aren't exactly consenting to this. https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-rack/ https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-ra...
      - simion314 8y ago
        I know about artificial insemination, but you can't do it when you want, it only works when the cow is in heat. When a cow is in heat she behaves differently (she starts ridding other cows) so the farmer notices this and calls a veterinarian to inseminate the cow or bring a bull. I was asking if they can force the cow to be in heat. change the ovulation cycle or whatever explains the thing I quoted.
        Forbo 8y ago
        Typically they're looking for a bull to do that job. Just because a woman is ovulating doesn't mean that she wants some other species to restrain her, anally violate her, and forcibly impregnate her. This argument only works if you believe that animals are worthy of empathy, but many would rather live with the cognitive dissonance that animals are incapable of emotions than go through the hassle of changing their diet.
        simion314 8y ago
JohnFen 8y ago
> As someone who has tried a lot of non-dairy creamers, I have yet to find a single one that "works great". Oh, man, this is so true. I like cream in my coffee, but if the only thing available is non-dairy creamers, then taking it black is much preferable.
clarkmoody 8y ago
I think the first step that most people can agree on is to remove all agricultural subsidies and tariffs (and ethanol requirements). That way, the things being produced in -- and imported to -- the US more closely match what consumers actually want, without government putting its finger on the scale. As the costs of subsidized, unhealthy food rise, consumption will decline. This, of course, assumes that the demand is induced by artificially low prices. If people consume just as much high-fructose corn syrup at higher prices, then you have a cultural challenge on your hands.
- jeffbax 8y ago
  Careful, if we stopped subsidizing so many bad things (corn syrup, meat, CO2, housing for the wealthy, college for the wealthy, insurance for the wealthy, union labor in cities falling apart whether in regards to budget, infrastructure or education…) you might start solving real problems!
- StanislavPetrov 8y ago
  Even more important than removing agricultural subsidies and tariffs would be to implement laws that require humane treatment of these living, breathing creatures. Prices would soar and alternatives would prosper if factory farms were not allowed to torture animals.
- jefftk 8y ago
  In the US a big factor is the very high sugar tariff. So I'm not convinced that taking all the fingers off the scale would make for much healthier!
natecavanaugh 8y ago
In my mind, this seems like the most reasoned middle ground I've encountered. I'm a committed carnivore, but I do have ethical qualms with animal death, and if there are options that have negligible differences in experience (cost/convenience/taste), I'll take it, but as you mentioned, there are small, but concrete ways to improve things without going whole hog into avoiding all animal products or having to wait for big companies to adopt those options. (As an aside, does anyone know the reasoning behind avoiding honey? I've even seen a software license that forbade it's use in any product that may directly or indirectly use or industrialize animal products, including honey).
- johnday 8y ago
  The Vegan Society have an explainer on this: https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/honey-industry https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/honey-industry In practise, the answer is because it's a form of exploitation and exploitation is considered Always Bad by the VS. It's probably easier to explain this to people than to try and nuance (ie soften) the stance. Not a criticism.
forevernow 8y ago
Oatley Oat Milk works incredibly well. It's kind of a trendy thing at Alfred coffee shops in LA but invented 30-years ago in Sweden. It's in several stores but the supply has been limited so it's somewhat hard to get.
- hnarn 8y ago
  Again, "works incredibly well" is, in my subjective opinion, almost an absurd exaggeration. Yes, it "works", but by what criteria? If your criteria is that it should be better than no addition to the coffee at all, sure, but that is true for all creamers, for some people even the worst ones. If your criteria is that you want the taste of milk, then it really, really does not work, at all.

by hnarn 8y ago

duxup 8y ago

Yeah my experience too is that the non dairy creamers.... taste very much like non dairy creamers. That's not necessarily bad if you like that, there are lots of product substitutes that to a good job in their own right even if they aren't what they intended to replace. I cook and there are all sorts of good products that historically were intended to replace or augment something else and do their own thing well. But as far as non dairy creamers go, it's just no a replacement for actual milk for me. Two similar, but noticeably different things.

wallace_f 8y ago

I'm unsure of the ethics of milk as food. Do milk cows live good lives? Can they? I've researched, and haven't come to a firm conclusion, but I'm not as alarmed by it, in relative terms. Could be bias. Dairy is my most-favoured food. Cheese, milk, yogurt, butter...

tomstoms 8y ago
Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life, hooked up to a machine that sucks your calves food out of you, while they are dragged away for slaughter or to join the crew. After a handful lactations, or if you don’t produce enough, or you’re sick too often, you’re slaughtered too. Most of the time you’re indoors walking around in your own feces. Sound like a good life to you?
- simion314 8y ago
  >Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life Can you explain this to me, I only know how this is on farms, the cow will be in heat 1 time a year, I mean it is natural to the cows, you can't impregnate them if they are not in heat and if it was a wild cow she would still get as pregnant as often. But maybe is the industrial way something else is happening? Let me know so I understand your point
  - Forbo 8y ago
    You most certainly can impregnate a cow that is unwilling. The following article is definitely biased, but the point still stands that the animals aren't exactly consenting to this. https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-rack/ https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-ra...
    - simion314 8y ago
      I know about artificial insemination, but you can't do it when you want, it only works when the cow is in heat. When a cow is in heat she behaves differently (she starts ridding other cows) so the farmer notices this and calls a veterinarian to inseminate the cow or bring a bull. I was asking if they can force the cow to be in heat. change the ovulation cycle or whatever explains the thing I quoted.
      - Forbo 8y ago
        Typically they're looking for a bull to do that job. Just because a woman is ovulating doesn't mean that she wants some other species to restrain her, anally violate her, and forcibly impregnate her. This argument only works if you believe that animals are worthy of empathy, but many would rather live with the cognitive dissonance that animals are incapable of emotions than go through the hassle of changing their diet.
        simion314 8y ago

JohnFen 8y ago

> As someone who has tried a lot of non-dairy creamers, I have yet to find a single one that "works great". Oh, man, this is so true. I like cream in my coffee, but if the only thing available is non-dairy creamers, then taking it black is much preferable.

clarkmoody 8y ago

I think the first step that most people can agree on is to remove all agricultural subsidies and tariffs (and ethanol requirements). That way, the things being produced in -- and imported to -- the US more closely match what consumers actually want, without government putting its finger on the scale. As the costs of subsidized, unhealthy food rise, consumption will decline. This, of course, assumes that the demand is induced by artificially low prices. If people consume just as much high-fructose corn syrup at higher prices, then you have a cultural challenge on your hands.

jeffbax 8y ago
Careful, if we stopped subsidizing so many bad things (corn syrup, meat, CO2, housing for the wealthy, college for the wealthy, insurance for the wealthy, union labor in cities falling apart whether in regards to budget, infrastructure or education…) you might start solving real problems!
StanislavPetrov 8y ago
Even more important than removing agricultural subsidies and tariffs would be to implement laws that require humane treatment of these living, breathing creatures. Prices would soar and alternatives would prosper if factory farms were not allowed to torture animals.
jefftk 8y ago
In the US a big factor is the very high sugar tariff. So I'm not convinced that taking all the fingers off the scale would make for much healthier!

natecavanaugh 8y ago

In my mind, this seems like the most reasoned middle ground I've encountered. I'm a committed carnivore, but I do have ethical qualms with animal death, and if there are options that have negligible differences in experience (cost/convenience/taste), I'll take it, but as you mentioned, there are small, but concrete ways to improve things without going whole hog into avoiding all animal products or having to wait for big companies to adopt those options. (As an aside, does anyone know the reasoning behind avoiding honey? I've even seen a software license that forbade it's use in any product that may directly or indirectly use or industrialize animal products, including honey).

johnday 8y ago
The Vegan Society have an explainer on this: https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/honey-industry https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/honey-industry In practise, the answer is because it's a form of exploitation and exploitation is considered Always Bad by the VS. It's probably easier to explain this to people than to try and nuance (ie soften) the stance. Not a criticism.

forevernow 8y ago

Oatley Oat Milk works incredibly well. It's kind of a trendy thing at Alfred coffee shops in LA but invented 30-years ago in Sweden. It's in several stores but the supply has been limited so it's somewhat hard to get.

hnarn 8y ago
Again, "works incredibly well" is, in my subjective opinion, almost an absurd exaggeration. Yes, it "works", but by what criteria? If your criteria is that it should be better than no addition to the coffee at all, sure, but that is true for all creamers, for some people even the worst ones. If your criteria is that you want the taste of milk, then it really, really does not work, at all.