8 ms·

Here an interesting quote[0] from the founder of Impossible Burger that kind of touches on the meatless vs vegetarian/vegan discussion happening a lot in this t

by goda90 8y ago

Here an interesting quote[0] from the founder of Impossible Burger that kind of touches on the meatless vs vegetarian/vegan discussion happening a lot in this thread: "[Before becoming a vegan] I loved putting milk in my coffee and cereal, but plant-based milks don’t work for me so far. No-one is trying very hard to deliver the full experience of what consumers value from milk. We don’t want to follow the course of soya and almond milk. We’re after 100% of the market, not a niche of people avoiding meat or being health conscious. To capture the whole market you have to deliver whatever it is that consumers value from that category of product. People have been making veggie burgers forever but not trying to make something that replicates the crave-able experience that meat lovers enjoy." [0]https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/08/impossible-foods-ceo-eliminate-meat-human-diets-veggie-burger https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/08...

robertfw 8y ago
As an aside, there are quite a few non-dairy creamers that work great for coffee/tea etc, as almond/soy definitely do not work well.
- astura 8y ago
  Many mainstream "Non-dairy" creamers, like Coffee Mate and International Delight, usually have dairy in them though, specifically, caseinate. So not suitable for strict vegans. It's a quirk in labeling laws that products that have milk-derived ingredients can be labeled non-dairy as long as they label the milk-derived ingredients as milk-derived in the ingredients list. That being said, they do make vegan creamer, never had any myself. It's still a specialty product though, most places that serve coffee, beyond coffee shops, are only going to have milk, half and half, and Coffee Mate/International Delight.
- hnarn 8y ago
  > there are quite a few non-dairy creamers that work great As someone who has tried a lot of non-dairy creamers, I have yet to find a single one that "works great". There's something very characteristic about both the taste and the consistency of milk and most replacement products are nowhere close. That's not to say milk is irreplaceable for all applications, but there's a tendency to over-hype healthy and organic replacement products that try to be "just as good" because we all want a sustainable, healthy replacement without sacrificing anything at all, but belying reality is hardly going to get us there. Personally, I feel more attracted to the idea that it's better to do something than nothing at all. You don't have to go vegan tomorrow, if people just ate less meat and started thinking about this type of stuff as a luxury and not a right, we would've come a long way. Personally, milk in my coffee is non-negotiable. Bacon for breakfast? Well, I hardly need it every day, or even every week, so I'm open to discuss frequency.
  - duxup 8y ago
    Yeah my experience too is that the non dairy creamers.... taste very much like non dairy creamers. That's not necessarily bad if you like that, there are lots of product substitutes that to a good job in their own right even if they aren't what they intended to replace. I cook and there are all sorts of good products that historically were intended to replace or augment something else and do their own thing well. But as far as non dairy creamers go, it's just no a replacement for actual milk for me. Two similar, but noticeably different things.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    I'm unsure of the ethics of milk as food. Do milk cows live good lives? Can they? I've researched, and haven't come to a firm conclusion, but I'm not as alarmed by it, in relative terms. Could be bias. Dairy is my most-favoured food. Cheese, milk, yogurt, butter...
    - tomstoms 8y ago
      Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life, hooked up to a machine that sucks your calves food out of you, while they are dragged away for slaughter or to join the crew. After a handful lactations, or if you don’t produce enough, or you’re sick too often, you’re slaughtered too. Most of the time you’re indoors walking around in your own feces. Sound like a good life to you?
      - simion314 8y ago
        >Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life Can you explain this to me, I only know how this is on farms, the cow will be in heat 1 time a year, I mean it is natural to the cows, you can't impregnate them if they are not in heat and if it was a wild cow she would still get as pregnant as often. But maybe is the industrial way something else is happening? Let me know so I understand your point
        Forbo 8y ago
sgillen 8y ago
Ironically I find that I (vegetarian, not vegan) tend to enjoy meat replacements that don't try replicate meat. I find the ones that DO try to replicate meats taste are just not very good at it, and it ends up tasting pretty bad. The good stuff is still tasty and savory but it's doing its own thing. edit: Not to say the impossible burger can't be good (I've not been able to try one) Just a comment on existing products that I've tried.
- loeg 8y ago
  Isn't this just a criticism of existing meat-alike products? Or have you tried impossible burger and found it not tasty?
  - twiss 8y ago
    I've been a vegetarian for ~my whole life, tried the impossible burger, didn't like it. To be fair it might have more to do with the way it looks rather than the taste - meat-looking stuff doesn't appeal to me. My favorite burger is [0], which makes no attempt to look or taste like meat but is delicious in its own right. [0]: https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi128419/garden-gourmet-vegetarische-toscaanse-carre https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi128419/garden-gourmet-...
    - seriousaccount1 8y ago
      Love that one as well. The chimichurri burger of garden gourmet is nice as well, but a bit spicy.
  - sgillen 8y ago
    It is a criticism of existing products, I have not tried an impossible burger and would be very excited to find that it tastes as good as meat.
- jkeuhlen 8y ago
  My wife was diagnosed with celiac last year, and we've found the same to be true of eating GF alternatives. Foods that try to replicate gluten tend to be much worse than things that are just good without it.
gnicholas 8y ago
Isn't there a YC startup from the last batch that does precisely this (high-quality, versatile milk substitute)? EDIT: yep, Eclipse Foods: https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/19/launching-from-yc-eclipse-foods-casts-a-long-shadow-over-the-336-billion-dairy-industry/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/19/launching-from-yc-eclipse-...
giarc 8y ago
The founder of Impossible Burger was on Too Embarrassed To Ask podcast [0] and I specifically remember him talking about how his product is meat (because of the heme). It's just not meat from an animal, or at least this is how I interpreted sections like "...It’s a heme protein that turns out to be basically the single thing that separates meat categorically from all other foods in terms of its flavor profile." 0 - https://www.recode.net/2017/8/18/16171336/transcript-impossible-foods-burger-pat-brown-meat-heme-too-embarrassed-to-ask https://www.recode.net/2017/8/18/16171336/transcript-impossi...
gdubs 8y ago
As a side point, milk (in espresso drinks) was one of the last animal food products I’ve been holding on to. My five year old, who’s mostly vegan because she’s allergic to milk, said, “daddy, why do you keep putting cow milk in your coffee, you should stop.” I had read somewhere that it takes around two or three weeks to get used to the taste of something. I’m a coffee snob, and I really didn’t like the taste of almond milk in coffee. Well, sure enough, after a few weeks I really don’t mind it and I can see being completely used to it soon. I do still prefer oat milk, which has recently become a lot more available. Much milder taste, and it foams better for lattes.
- qlm 8y ago
  Almond milk in coffee makes it taste like disgusting hot bitter marzipan imo.
  - gdubs 8y ago
    Ha - a fair description of how I viewed it initially as well. Though, it is amazing how tastes can change. I have the gene that makes Cilantro taste like soap. When I first moved to California, I couldn’t stand it. A decade later and I love cilantro.
    - hooloovoo_zoo 8y ago
      Interesting, I've eaten Chipotle (which has cilantro in the rice) for years and I still hate the taste of cilantro.
- shade 8y ago
  I am decidedly not a coffee snob, but agree that almond milk in coffee isn't great. I've tended to use coconut milk because it has some creaminess to it that seems to work well in coffee. I'll have to see if I can find oat milk to try.
  - gsdatta 8y ago
    Most shops in SF have oat milk, if you're located in that area. Oat milk has been a game changer for me. All Blue Bottle locations carry Oatly oat milk.
caprese 8y ago
> not a niche of people avoiding meat or being health conscious very well articulated. I've been fortunate enough to be around vegan people that aren't so judgemental, but they seemed to still neglect the existence of people that would like to replicate the experience of meat and interpret that as apathy.

by goda90 8y ago

robertfw 8y ago

As an aside, there are quite a few non-dairy creamers that work great for coffee/tea etc, as almond/soy definitely do not work well.

astura 8y ago
Many mainstream "Non-dairy" creamers, like Coffee Mate and International Delight, usually have dairy in them though, specifically, caseinate. So not suitable for strict vegans. It's a quirk in labeling laws that products that have milk-derived ingredients can be labeled non-dairy as long as they label the milk-derived ingredients as milk-derived in the ingredients list. That being said, they do make vegan creamer, never had any myself. It's still a specialty product though, most places that serve coffee, beyond coffee shops, are only going to have milk, half and half, and Coffee Mate/International Delight.
hnarn 8y ago
> there are quite a few non-dairy creamers that work great As someone who has tried a lot of non-dairy creamers, I have yet to find a single one that "works great". There's something very characteristic about both the taste and the consistency of milk and most replacement products are nowhere close. That's not to say milk is irreplaceable for all applications, but there's a tendency to over-hype healthy and organic replacement products that try to be "just as good" because we all want a sustainable, healthy replacement without sacrificing anything at all, but belying reality is hardly going to get us there. Personally, I feel more attracted to the idea that it's better to do something than nothing at all. You don't have to go vegan tomorrow, if people just ate less meat and started thinking about this type of stuff as a luxury and not a right, we would've come a long way. Personally, milk in my coffee is non-negotiable. Bacon for breakfast? Well, I hardly need it every day, or even every week, so I'm open to discuss frequency.
- duxup 8y ago
  Yeah my experience too is that the non dairy creamers.... taste very much like non dairy creamers. That's not necessarily bad if you like that, there are lots of product substitutes that to a good job in their own right even if they aren't what they intended to replace. I cook and there are all sorts of good products that historically were intended to replace or augment something else and do their own thing well. But as far as non dairy creamers go, it's just no a replacement for actual milk for me. Two similar, but noticeably different things.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  I'm unsure of the ethics of milk as food. Do milk cows live good lives? Can they? I've researched, and haven't come to a firm conclusion, but I'm not as alarmed by it, in relative terms. Could be bias. Dairy is my most-favoured food. Cheese, milk, yogurt, butter...
  - tomstoms 8y ago
    Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life, hooked up to a machine that sucks your calves food out of you, while they are dragged away for slaughter or to join the crew. After a handful lactations, or if you don’t produce enough, or you’re sick too often, you’re slaughtered too. Most of the time you’re indoors walking around in your own feces. Sound like a good life to you?
    - simion314 8y ago
      >Imagine being more or less constantly pregnant during your entire life Can you explain this to me, I only know how this is on farms, the cow will be in heat 1 time a year, I mean it is natural to the cows, you can't impregnate them if they are not in heat and if it was a wild cow she would still get as pregnant as often. But maybe is the industrial way something else is happening? Let me know so I understand your point
      - Forbo 8y ago

sgillen 8y ago

Ironically I find that I (vegetarian, not vegan) tend to enjoy meat replacements that don't try replicate meat. I find the ones that DO try to replicate meats taste are just not very good at it, and it ends up tasting pretty bad. The good stuff is still tasty and savory but it's doing its own thing. edit: Not to say the impossible burger can't be good (I've not been able to try one) Just a comment on existing products that I've tried.

loeg 8y ago
Isn't this just a criticism of existing meat-alike products? Or have you tried impossible burger and found it not tasty?
- twiss 8y ago
  I've been a vegetarian for ~my whole life, tried the impossible burger, didn't like it. To be fair it might have more to do with the way it looks rather than the taste - meat-looking stuff doesn't appeal to me. My favorite burger is [0], which makes no attempt to look or taste like meat but is delicious in its own right. [0]: https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi128419/garden-gourmet-vegetarische-toscaanse-carre https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi128419/garden-gourmet-...
  - seriousaccount1 8y ago
    Love that one as well. The chimichurri burger of garden gourmet is nice as well, but a bit spicy.
- sgillen 8y ago
  It is a criticism of existing products, I have not tried an impossible burger and would be very excited to find that it tastes as good as meat.
jkeuhlen 8y ago
My wife was diagnosed with celiac last year, and we've found the same to be true of eating GF alternatives. Foods that try to replicate gluten tend to be much worse than things that are just good without it.

gnicholas 8y ago

Isn't there a YC startup from the last batch that does precisely this (high-quality, versatile milk substitute)? EDIT: yep, Eclipse Foods: https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/19/launching-from-yc-eclipse-foods-casts-a-long-shadow-over-the-336-billion-dairy-industry/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/19/launching-from-yc-eclipse-...

giarc 8y ago

The founder of Impossible Burger was on Too Embarrassed To Ask podcast [0] and I specifically remember him talking about how his product is meat (because of the heme). It's just not meat from an animal, or at least this is how I interpreted sections like "...It’s a heme protein that turns out to be basically the single thing that separates meat categorically from all other foods in terms of its flavor profile." 0 - https://www.recode.net/2017/8/18/16171336/transcript-impossible-foods-burger-pat-brown-meat-heme-too-embarrassed-to-ask https://www.recode.net/2017/8/18/16171336/transcript-impossi...

gdubs 8y ago

As a side point, milk (in espresso drinks) was one of the last animal food products I’ve been holding on to. My five year old, who’s mostly vegan because she’s allergic to milk, said, “daddy, why do you keep putting cow milk in your coffee, you should stop.” I had read somewhere that it takes around two or three weeks to get used to the taste of something. I’m a coffee snob, and I really didn’t like the taste of almond milk in coffee. Well, sure enough, after a few weeks I really don’t mind it and I can see being completely used to it soon. I do still prefer oat milk, which has recently become a lot more available. Much milder taste, and it foams better for lattes.

qlm 8y ago
Almond milk in coffee makes it taste like disgusting hot bitter marzipan imo.
- gdubs 8y ago
  Ha - a fair description of how I viewed it initially as well. Though, it is amazing how tastes can change. I have the gene that makes Cilantro taste like soap. When I first moved to California, I couldn’t stand it. A decade later and I love cilantro.
  - hooloovoo_zoo 8y ago
    Interesting, I've eaten Chipotle (which has cilantro in the rice) for years and I still hate the taste of cilantro.
shade 8y ago
I am decidedly not a coffee snob, but agree that almond milk in coffee isn't great. I've tended to use coconut milk because it has some creaminess to it that seems to work well in coffee. I'll have to see if I can find oat milk to try.
- gsdatta 8y ago
  Most shops in SF have oat milk, if you're located in that area. Oat milk has been a game changer for me. All Blue Bottle locations carry Oatly oat milk.

caprese 8y ago

> not a niche of people avoiding meat or being health conscious very well articulated. I've been fortunate enough to be around vegan people that aren't so judgemental, but they seemed to still neglect the existence of people that would like to replicate the experience of meat and interpret that as apathy.