4 ms·

So, I had a problem. I wanted furniture that would last at least a decade. Without going into too much detail, I cannot stress how poorly constructed modern ma

So, I had a problem. I wanted furniture that would last at least a decade. Without going into too much detail, I cannot stress how poorly constructed modern manufactured furniture is. It's also super expensive to pay a craftsperson to make a one-off item. I ended up making my own, and I couldn't have done this without the existence of a nearby arts center that had space for rent and (I'm guessing) $50K worth of machinery. I see similarities between the 'guilds' mentioned in the article and my local arts center. I also see needs that could be met if the art-center (guild) concept was extended beyond it's current function. Not really sure about its feasability, just incredibly dissapointed in the offerings that I was presented with in our free-enterprise system and perhaps a bit idealistic about locale-specific workshops that might serve consumers better.

man-and-laptop 7y ago
How is this arts centre funded?
- bradford 7y ago
  It's a non profit. They know how to play the donation game very well. They also offer classes and charge daily or monthly fees for general use. The model works in a big city with lots of potential users and well-off people who are willing to donate. It would have to be modified if extended elsewhere
egypturnash 7y ago
> locale-specific workshops see also "maker spaces"
- bradford 7y ago
  While I like the concept of maker spaces, they vary so much from space to space. The space nearest to me was started by people whose primary interest is Burning man. I toured the shop and it was... chaotic at best. They reconfigured the shop to focus on whatever contraption they were planning for next years show. They seemed to say whatever they could to potential paying customers just to collect their money and keep the shop running. They cut some serious corners on safety and I don't think I could have accomplished the tasks that I set out to do had a gone down the maker space route. I realize that other shops might be different.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    Hackerspaces are very much like that. I've been to hackerspaces... 2 in Indiana 1 in Baltimore 1 in Washington DC 1 in Cambridge (MA) 1 in Louisville (tomorrow evening) They all are packed in whatever space they could rent. Safety is like the safety of a shop floor: dont be stupid around machines that can deglove, cut, burn, or electrocute you. And every place had points of contact to ask about proper safe operations, and all had abundant PPE. Makerspaces.. well, my first feeling is it's a pretty name in place of "hacker". Secondly, 'maker' has heavier commercial usage with commercial 'makerspaces'. They aren't seat-of-pants operation like a hackerspace can be. Ive also noticed that places that call themselves "makerspaces" also seem to discourage open house nights, and focus on "call for a walkthrough".
RandomBacon 7y ago
> Without going into too much detail, I cannot stress how poorly constructed modern manufactured furniture is. I figured as much, but I would still be very interested in reading whatever you have to write on the subject. I am considering making my own furniture when I buy a house in the next year or two.
- bradford 7y ago
  Take a class, get in touch with someone who's experienced. Ideally, re-use an existing shop when you're a novice. I had about 40 hours of shop time with a teacher before I felt comfortable working on my own. Fortunately, you should be able to do this before you buy a house. Unfortunately, it's not always easy to find these services, depending on where you live. Youtube videos and online resources are plentiful, and while they are better than nothing, they can't capture the nuanced fine motor skills that are required, and they can't point out the mistakes that you are making as you are doing them.
gridlockd 7y ago
> Not really sure about its feasability, just incredibly dissapointed in the offerings that I was presented with in our free-enterprise system and perhaps a bit idealistic about locale-specific workshops that might serve consumers better. This "free enterprise system" offered you the craftsman who - free of the shackles of guilds - would have given you a price that you didn't agree on, for the kind of work you would have liked to have performed. I don't understand what you are disappointed about - that skilled craftsman get to charge well for their work? That cheaply produced products don't live up to the work of a skilled craftsman? Have you calculated the opportunity cost of doing it yourself?
- bradford 7y ago
  Could be wrong, but I feel that you interpreted my statement about 'free enterprise' as an opening salvo in a political discussion, which isn't exactly where I was trying to go. That said, to elaborate on what exactly I'm dissapointed with, I'd say: 1) today's mass produced furniture is of significant lower quality than that of generations past. Why is it that so many industries improve over time, yet the offerings for furniture have gotten so much worse? 2) the manufacturer's exploitation of asymetric information. When they know how crappy the product is, and the consumer doesn't, the manufacturer wins the transaction every time. Too many times I've felt like a sucker only a few months after purchase. Spending more money doesn't mean you get a better product, it often means I'm a bigger sucker. 3) The lack of diversity in available options. You have either low-quality department store options, or you have a super expensive individual craftsman, with nothing in-between. 4) the lack of accountability for companies that peddle crap. Example: Ikea's quality has been the butt of jokes for a long time, but consumers keep going back. This isn't the way I expected the free market to operate. And yes, I have considered the opportunity cost of doing it myself. I realize I'm probably weird in that I chose this, and it wasn't an easy, nor cheap choice, but I'd rather do it than give the department stores another dollar of my business. I'm dissapointed that if someone else was in the same situation as me, I wouldn't have an easy answer for them.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > 1) today's mass produced furniture is of significant lower quality than that of generations past. Why is it that so many industries improve over time, yet the offerings for furniture have gotten so much worse? Let's accept this premise as true, if a company can cut corners and consumers keep paying the same price regardless, quality is allowed to suffer. Competition stops working when consumers can't tell the difference or don't bother shopping around. > 2) the manufacturer's exploitation of asymetric information. When they know how crappy the product is, and the consumer doesn't, the manufacturer wins the transaction every time. Too many times I've felt like a sucker only a few months after purchase. Spending more money doesn't mean you get a better product, it often means I'm a bigger sucker. Well, you do know better now, right? The asymmetry isn't set in stone. You can spend more time on research, educate your fellow peers, etc. Start a YouTube channel that becomes the top result when people look for furniture. Perhaps people just don't care enough though, then that information asymmetry is actually part of fair pricing. There are other areas, cars for example, where there's a wealth of such information both sought after and provided. > 3) The lack of diversity in available options. You have either low-quality department store options, or you have a super expensive individual craftsman, with nothing in-between. Again, this reflects the purchasing habits of actual consumers. People don't care about furniture enough to pay a good price for quality work, therefore producers have to adapt to either ends. > 4) the lack of accountability for companies that peddle crap. Example: Ikea's quality has been the butt of jokes for a long time, but consumers keep going back. This isn't the way I expected the free market to operate. I guess your expectations were wrong then. There are many reasons for IKEA's success, the furniture quality (perhaps ironically) happens not to be one of them. > I realize I'm probably weird in that I chose this, and it wasn't an easy, nor cheap choice, but I'd rather do it than give the department stores another dollar of my business Don't get me wrong, I totally respect your choice and "do it yourself" attitude. You may have gotten more out of it than you paid. If it's really just about the furniture though, paying a craftsman to do the work may just be cheaper. > I'm dissapointed that if someone else was in the same situation as me, I wouldn't have an easy answer for them. The "easy answer" is to pay the craftsman, but people don't want to hear it because they can't (or just don't want to) pay for them.
pkaye 7y ago
I had some semi-custom wood furniture built locally by an US company recently. You pick the basic design, wood, finish and all the details from a brochure. Its ready in a month. It was not like top end custom construction but definitely better than the cheap quality import stuff at a slightly higher price. I think there are a lot of these companies around but just not well advertised.
jimmaswell 7y ago
50k worth of machinery? Maybe if you're getting really fancy, but for some basic furniture you shouldn't need more tools than a handheld circular saw, hammer or cordless screwdriver, and optional belt sander and maybe a vice grip.
- Kluny 7y ago
  Maybe it wasn't basic.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    Maybe. I'm curious what was made here. People certainly didn't need all that machinery when they made their own furniture in the wild west.
    - msbarnett 7y ago
      Perhaps he was aiming for a level of quality slightly higher than "some wild west two-by-fours nailed together"? The second you start looking at making aesthetically pleasing furniture you're looking at doing proper joinery (tenons, dovetails and the like) not hammering nails in. Likely at the very least you'll want either a table saw, a router, and a number of jigs, or quite a few different specialized hand saws and some high-quality chisels. Likely you'll want to resaw boards to correct thickness as well, so figure a Bandsaw or for larger pieces, a planer.
      - jimmaswell 7y ago
        Sure, I'm just pointing out you don't need that much investment to make your own serviceable furniture, assuming you have the room. Personally I like the basic wood look on furniture.
        bonesjpone 7y ago
        Japanese furniture and temples were all built using only joints and advanced wood working techniques. Minimal tools were needed, and if they were needed.. they were built by hand all the same.

man-and-laptop 7y ago

How is this arts centre funded?

bradford 7y ago
It's a non profit. They know how to play the donation game very well. They also offer classes and charge daily or monthly fees for general use. The model works in a big city with lots of potential users and well-off people who are willing to donate. It would have to be modified if extended elsewhere

egypturnash 7y ago

> locale-specific workshops see also "maker spaces"

bradford 7y ago
While I like the concept of maker spaces, they vary so much from space to space. The space nearest to me was started by people whose primary interest is Burning man. I toured the shop and it was... chaotic at best. They reconfigured the shop to focus on whatever contraption they were planning for next years show. They seemed to say whatever they could to potential paying customers just to collect their money and keep the shop running. They cut some serious corners on safety and I don't think I could have accomplished the tasks that I set out to do had a gone down the maker space route. I realize that other shops might be different.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  Hackerspaces are very much like that. I've been to hackerspaces... 2 in Indiana 1 in Baltimore 1 in Washington DC 1 in Cambridge (MA) 1 in Louisville (tomorrow evening) They all are packed in whatever space they could rent. Safety is like the safety of a shop floor: dont be stupid around machines that can deglove, cut, burn, or electrocute you. And every place had points of contact to ask about proper safe operations, and all had abundant PPE. Makerspaces.. well, my first feeling is it's a pretty name in place of "hacker". Secondly, 'maker' has heavier commercial usage with commercial 'makerspaces'. They aren't seat-of-pants operation like a hackerspace can be. Ive also noticed that places that call themselves "makerspaces" also seem to discourage open house nights, and focus on "call for a walkthrough".

RandomBacon 7y ago

> Without going into too much detail, I cannot stress how poorly constructed modern manufactured furniture is. I figured as much, but I would still be very interested in reading whatever you have to write on the subject. I am considering making my own furniture when I buy a house in the next year or two.

bradford 7y ago
Take a class, get in touch with someone who's experienced. Ideally, re-use an existing shop when you're a novice. I had about 40 hours of shop time with a teacher before I felt comfortable working on my own. Fortunately, you should be able to do this before you buy a house. Unfortunately, it's not always easy to find these services, depending on where you live. Youtube videos and online resources are plentiful, and while they are better than nothing, they can't capture the nuanced fine motor skills that are required, and they can't point out the mistakes that you are making as you are doing them.

gridlockd 7y ago

> Not really sure about its feasability, just incredibly dissapointed in the offerings that I was presented with in our free-enterprise system and perhaps a bit idealistic about locale-specific workshops that might serve consumers better. This "free enterprise system" offered you the craftsman who - free of the shackles of guilds - would have given you a price that you didn't agree on, for the kind of work you would have liked to have performed. I don't understand what you are disappointed about - that skilled craftsman get to charge well for their work? That cheaply produced products don't live up to the work of a skilled craftsman? Have you calculated the opportunity cost of doing it yourself?

bradford 7y ago
Could be wrong, but I feel that you interpreted my statement about 'free enterprise' as an opening salvo in a political discussion, which isn't exactly where I was trying to go. That said, to elaborate on what exactly I'm dissapointed with, I'd say: 1) today's mass produced furniture is of significant lower quality than that of generations past. Why is it that so many industries improve over time, yet the offerings for furniture have gotten so much worse? 2) the manufacturer's exploitation of asymetric information. When they know how crappy the product is, and the consumer doesn't, the manufacturer wins the transaction every time. Too many times I've felt like a sucker only a few months after purchase. Spending more money doesn't mean you get a better product, it often means I'm a bigger sucker. 3) The lack of diversity in available options. You have either low-quality department store options, or you have a super expensive individual craftsman, with nothing in-between. 4) the lack of accountability for companies that peddle crap. Example: Ikea's quality has been the butt of jokes for a long time, but consumers keep going back. This isn't the way I expected the free market to operate. And yes, I have considered the opportunity cost of doing it myself. I realize I'm probably weird in that I chose this, and it wasn't an easy, nor cheap choice, but I'd rather do it than give the department stores another dollar of my business. I'm dissapointed that if someone else was in the same situation as me, I wouldn't have an easy answer for them.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > 1) today's mass produced furniture is of significant lower quality than that of generations past. Why is it that so many industries improve over time, yet the offerings for furniture have gotten so much worse? Let's accept this premise as true, if a company can cut corners and consumers keep paying the same price regardless, quality is allowed to suffer. Competition stops working when consumers can't tell the difference or don't bother shopping around. > 2) the manufacturer's exploitation of asymetric information. When they know how crappy the product is, and the consumer doesn't, the manufacturer wins the transaction every time. Too many times I've felt like a sucker only a few months after purchase. Spending more money doesn't mean you get a better product, it often means I'm a bigger sucker. Well, you do know better now, right? The asymmetry isn't set in stone. You can spend more time on research, educate your fellow peers, etc. Start a YouTube channel that becomes the top result when people look for furniture. Perhaps people just don't care enough though, then that information asymmetry is actually part of fair pricing. There are other areas, cars for example, where there's a wealth of such information both sought after and provided. > 3) The lack of diversity in available options. You have either low-quality department store options, or you have a super expensive individual craftsman, with nothing in-between. Again, this reflects the purchasing habits of actual consumers. People don't care about furniture enough to pay a good price for quality work, therefore producers have to adapt to either ends. > 4) the lack of accountability for companies that peddle crap. Example: Ikea's quality has been the butt of jokes for a long time, but consumers keep going back. This isn't the way I expected the free market to operate. I guess your expectations were wrong then. There are many reasons for IKEA's success, the furniture quality (perhaps ironically) happens not to be one of them. > I realize I'm probably weird in that I chose this, and it wasn't an easy, nor cheap choice, but I'd rather do it than give the department stores another dollar of my business Don't get me wrong, I totally respect your choice and "do it yourself" attitude. You may have gotten more out of it than you paid. If it's really just about the furniture though, paying a craftsman to do the work may just be cheaper. > I'm dissapointed that if someone else was in the same situation as me, I wouldn't have an easy answer for them. The "easy answer" is to pay the craftsman, but people don't want to hear it because they can't (or just don't want to) pay for them.

pkaye 7y ago

I had some semi-custom wood furniture built locally by an US company recently. You pick the basic design, wood, finish and all the details from a brochure. Its ready in a month. It was not like top end custom construction but definitely better than the cheap quality import stuff at a slightly higher price. I think there are a lot of these companies around but just not well advertised.

jimmaswell 7y ago

50k worth of machinery? Maybe if you're getting really fancy, but for some basic furniture you shouldn't need more tools than a handheld circular saw, hammer or cordless screwdriver, and optional belt sander and maybe a vice grip.

Kluny 7y ago
Maybe it wasn't basic.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Maybe. I'm curious what was made here. People certainly didn't need all that machinery when they made their own furniture in the wild west.
  - msbarnett 7y ago
    Perhaps he was aiming for a level of quality slightly higher than "some wild west two-by-fours nailed together"? The second you start looking at making aesthetically pleasing furniture you're looking at doing proper joinery (tenons, dovetails and the like) not hammering nails in. Likely at the very least you'll want either a table saw, a router, and a number of jigs, or quite a few different specialized hand saws and some high-quality chisels. Likely you'll want to resaw boards to correct thickness as well, so figure a Bandsaw or for larger pieces, a planer.
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      Sure, I'm just pointing out you don't need that much investment to make your own serviceable furniture, assuming you have the room. Personally I like the basic wood look on furniture.
      - bonesjpone 7y ago
        Japanese furniture and temples were all built using only joints and advanced wood working techniques. Minimal tools were needed, and if they were needed.. they were built by hand all the same.