4 ms·

> ...I would argue unions don't do NOT do good job at preventing retaliation outside of jobs with very specific and prescribed career paths and etc.... > If th

> ...I would argue unions don't do NOT do good job at preventing retaliation outside of jobs with very specific and prescribed career paths and etc.... > If there is any room for an employer to make a judgment call then they can make it, and a union has limited ability to deal with that... US-style unions are really only just once instance of "unions." I can imagine another instance, where the union itself is both independent of the employer but also has a significant power in promotion decisions, that could deal with these situations better. That's getting toward a decision-making structure that formally represents multiple stakeholder grounds instead of just capital and its representatives.

duxup 7y ago
>where the union itself is both independent of the employer but also has a significant power in promotion decisions I would really hate to deal with a second level of bureaucracy when it comes to promotions and such.... let alone employer's having to accept "this guy is a senior X now" and realize he is not as opposed someone else who wasn't given that chance. That still seems like a very track type of career path situation where the technology world is still fast changing and has huge amounts of variety.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > I would really hate to deal with a second level of bureaucracy when it comes to promotions and such.... I was imagining it more as peer-accreditation and peer-participation, as the other union members would be your peers. Basically more democracy rather than bureaucracy.
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    Sure, but in many ways Google's promo process is already this way. Its not perfect, but at least IME, my promotion/performance evaluation has been based significantly on feedback from my peers.
    - CharlesColeman 7y ago
      > my promotion/performance evaluation has been based significantly on feedback from my peers "Based significantly on" is not the same as "made by" or "made in collaboration with." The problem here is an employer using their discretion as a hidden means of retaliation, and they can still do that with all the feedback in the world as long as the discretion is still all theirs.
      - joshuamorton 7y ago
        Removing employer discretion is not a solvable problem.
        CharlesColeman 7y ago
        I didn't say remove, I said spread it around so it's harder to use improperly.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Why all sensible unions keep them selves at arms length from this even more so M&P unions as they aren't in the business of stopping the employers right to manage as they represent managers.

duxup 7y ago

>where the union itself is both independent of the employer but also has a significant power in promotion decisions I would really hate to deal with a second level of bureaucracy when it comes to promotions and such.... let alone employer's having to accept "this guy is a senior X now" and realize he is not as opposed someone else who wasn't given that chance. That still seems like a very track type of career path situation where the technology world is still fast changing and has huge amounts of variety.

CharlesColeman 7y ago
> I would really hate to deal with a second level of bureaucracy when it comes to promotions and such.... I was imagining it more as peer-accreditation and peer-participation, as the other union members would be your peers. Basically more democracy rather than bureaucracy.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  Sure, but in many ways Google's promo process is already this way. Its not perfect, but at least IME, my promotion/performance evaluation has been based significantly on feedback from my peers.
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > my promotion/performance evaluation has been based significantly on feedback from my peers "Based significantly on" is not the same as "made by" or "made in collaboration with." The problem here is an employer using their discretion as a hidden means of retaliation, and they can still do that with all the feedback in the world as long as the discretion is still all theirs.
    - joshuamorton 7y ago
      Removing employer discretion is not a solvable problem.
      - CharlesColeman 7y ago
        I didn't say remove, I said spread it around so it's harder to use improperly.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Why all sensible unions keep them selves at arms length from this even more so M&P unions as they aren't in the business of stopping the employers right to manage as they represent managers.