4 ms·

I don't know the specifics here but I wonder if this is a correlation/causation issue. If a bunch of people walked out, and afterwards some of them feel mistrea

I don't know the specifics here but I wonder if this is a correlation/causation issue. If a bunch of people walked out, and afterwards some of them feel mistreated for whatever reason, it seems easy to assume it's retaliation. It could very well be some completely separate issue (reorg, change in priorities, etc..). Google management is really in a bind here.

elliekelly 7y ago
How often does a reorganization or "change in priorities" cause management to force healthy and capable employees to take sick leave? Particularly at a company with an unlimited sick leave policy. It seems to me they're trying to "encourage" these people to leave rather than fire them because that would look like retaliation. Google management isn't in bind, they're using the same playbook that has gotten them into trouble time and again.
- manfredo 7y ago
  About half the ex Google employees I've spoken to recently talk about projects starting and getting cancelled frequently and often with little warning. It would be suspicious if these events were limited to the people that protested, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Not to mention, while raising complaints about sexual assault would be protected, criticizing Google's decisions to do military contracts and open in China are not. If the company doesn't like what you're saying, and it's not specifically in one of those protected categories, then the company can fire you.
  - elliekelly 7y ago
    You're absolutely correct that a company can fire you for expressing an opinion but I think there's an important distinction that's often missed in the discussion because these are white collar employees. If an employee had simply made a public statement critical of government contracts they could be fired for cause and it would be a non-issue (from a legal perspective, at least). But where Google runs into retaliation trouble isn't with what the employees have said but with how they're saying it: in a group. Employees have an affirmative _right_ under the NLRA to join together and engage in "concerted activity" to advocate for their interests and to do so without interference or coercion from their employer. It doesn't matter whether the employees are critical of sexual harassment or the food in the cafeteria, if two or more of them are making the statement jointly then the matter is far more complicated because the employees have additional rights.
    - manfredo 7y ago
      > Employees have an affirmative _right_ under the NLRA to join together and engage in "concerted activity" to advocate for their interests and to do so without interference or coercion from their employer. For discussing working conditions like better pay, better benefits, etc. Not for getting on a soapbox and proclaiming that your employer is being morally bad. Yes, it absolutely does matter whether the employees are talking about sexual harassment vs. making moral criticisms of Google.
      - elliekelly 7y ago
        > Not for getting on a soapbox and proclaiming that your employer is being morally bad. Criticizing management (for example, for soliciting and accepting government contracts) and advocating for change to company policy (for example, to no longer sell controversial technology to government entities) is well-established protected concerted activity. Additionally, political speech (for example, "we don't support selling controversial technology to government entities") is also protected when there is a direct nexus between the political speech and the employees' interests "as employees." (The NLRB was feeling lazy the day they came up with that definition...) Recently the NLRB ruled that a company wrongfully fired employees in retaliation for missing work to attend a pro-immigration protest. IIRC the company hadn't even taken any actions against the employees (or in general) that could be considered "anti immigration" but their group attendance of the protest was protected concerted activity.[1] And the employees in that case missed their shifts at work (generally a fireable offense) and they weren't even criticizing management - they were criticizing the federal government. [1] [PDF Download] https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d458270d0e8 https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d458270d0e8
        manfredo 7y ago
        You should read your link in greater detail. The NRLB recommended taking the employer to court in that case, but we'd have to see how that case plays out to know whether firing employees for skipping work to attend a protest is not legal. The NRLB is quasi-judicial, their word is not law.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Err 100's of years of history would tend to argue against your position.
WillPostForFood 7y ago
A bunch of your employees walk out in protest because they don't want to do the work you want them to do. Isn't it totally normal and expected that you would then sanction or fire them?
- fwip 7y ago
  Take a gander at labor laws.
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    Yes, you can totally fire them. These aren't labor issues (i.e. working conditions or unionization which might provide some protection), and this isn't political protest /outside/ work. This is no different than, "I refuse to work in Java because I hate it," and you get fired.

elliekelly 7y ago

How often does a reorganization or "change in priorities" cause management to force healthy and capable employees to take sick leave? Particularly at a company with an unlimited sick leave policy. It seems to me they're trying to "encourage" these people to leave rather than fire them because that would look like retaliation. Google management isn't in bind, they're using the same playbook that has gotten them into trouble time and again.

manfredo 7y ago
About half the ex Google employees I've spoken to recently talk about projects starting and getting cancelled frequently and often with little warning. It would be suspicious if these events were limited to the people that protested, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Not to mention, while raising complaints about sexual assault would be protected, criticizing Google's decisions to do military contracts and open in China are not. If the company doesn't like what you're saying, and it's not specifically in one of those protected categories, then the company can fire you.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  You're absolutely correct that a company can fire you for expressing an opinion but I think there's an important distinction that's often missed in the discussion because these are white collar employees. If an employee had simply made a public statement critical of government contracts they could be fired for cause and it would be a non-issue (from a legal perspective, at least). But where Google runs into retaliation trouble isn't with what the employees have said but with how they're saying it: in a group. Employees have an affirmative _right_ under the NLRA to join together and engage in "concerted activity" to advocate for their interests and to do so without interference or coercion from their employer. It doesn't matter whether the employees are critical of sexual harassment or the food in the cafeteria, if two or more of them are making the statement jointly then the matter is far more complicated because the employees have additional rights.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > Employees have an affirmative _right_ under the NLRA to join together and engage in "concerted activity" to advocate for their interests and to do so without interference or coercion from their employer. For discussing working conditions like better pay, better benefits, etc. Not for getting on a soapbox and proclaiming that your employer is being morally bad. Yes, it absolutely does matter whether the employees are talking about sexual harassment vs. making moral criticisms of Google.
    - elliekelly 7y ago
      > Not for getting on a soapbox and proclaiming that your employer is being morally bad. Criticizing management (for example, for soliciting and accepting government contracts) and advocating for change to company policy (for example, to no longer sell controversial technology to government entities) is well-established protected concerted activity. Additionally, political speech (for example, "we don't support selling controversial technology to government entities") is also protected when there is a direct nexus between the political speech and the employees' interests "as employees." (The NLRB was feeling lazy the day they came up with that definition...) Recently the NLRB ruled that a company wrongfully fired employees in retaliation for missing work to attend a pro-immigration protest. IIRC the company hadn't even taken any actions against the employees (or in general) that could be considered "anti immigration" but their group attendance of the protest was protected concerted activity.[1] And the employees in that case missed their shifts at work (generally a fireable offense) and they weren't even criticizing management - they were criticizing the federal government. [1] [PDF Download] https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d458270d0e8 https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d458270d0e8
      - manfredo 7y ago
        You should read your link in greater detail. The NRLB recommended taking the employer to court in that case, but we'd have to see how that case plays out to know whether firing employees for skipping work to attend a protest is not legal. The NRLB is quasi-judicial, their word is not law.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Err 100's of years of history would tend to argue against your position.

WillPostForFood 7y ago

A bunch of your employees walk out in protest because they don't want to do the work you want them to do. Isn't it totally normal and expected that you would then sanction or fire them?

fwip 7y ago
Take a gander at labor laws.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  Yes, you can totally fire them. These aren't labor issues (i.e. working conditions or unionization which might provide some protection), and this isn't political protest /outside/ work. This is no different than, "I refuse to work in Java because I hate it," and you get fired.