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>This isn’t a “gap in the law” at all: it’s protection against incriminating yourself. So someones life should be ruined if you falsely accuse them simply beca

>This isn’t a “gap in the law” at all: it’s protection against incriminating yourself. So someones life should be ruined if you falsely accuse them simply because you shouldnt be allowed to incriminate yourself?

fabricexpert 7y ago
Self incrimination is not the same as a false accusation. Imagine if the person raped committed a different crime, unrelated to the rape, for which there was evidence of that on their phone. In order to report the rape, they have to self incriminate themself for that crime as well? In this scenario any drug user, prostitute or other criminal has no protection from the law against being raped.
- coherentpony 7y ago
  Or even more simply, even if there's no "other" crime: it's my personal data. I have a right to privacy.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryanm101 7y ago
    You also have an obligation to help the police solve the crime you reported by providing all and any relevant information. The issue is that people don't always know what information is relevant / they think stuff is too minor to mention. You wouldn't go to a doctors appointment and then say my body is private you cant examine me and expect them to go off just the info you provide. If the doctor asks to stick his finger up your rear to check your prostate you don't say er no thanks that's too private. You assume he has a good medical reason that he wants to do that and you let him confirm that you are healthy.
    - jbarberu 7y ago
      "If the doctor asks to stick his finger up your rear to check your prostate you don't say er no thanks that's too private" If you don't want your doctor to stick his finger up your butt, then that's exactly what you do. They don't have a right to finger your prostate, even though it might be beneficial to you.
      - eindiran 7y ago
        Yes, but then you don't get to be checked for prostate cancer.
        coherentpony 7y ago
        That's 100% correct, and 100% not the conversation we are having. If you don't want a medical procedure, even if it would be beneficial to you, you can refuse it. It is your right (at least in the US).
        tracker1 7y ago
        And like the doctor that cannot diagnose you with appropriate information, the police can't prosecute the accused without potentially backing or detracting details.
    - esarbe 7y ago
      I think this is a rather bad analogy, since in the case of a crime, it's not only your anus that's going to be probed.
- throw_political 7y ago
  > prostitute or other criminal It's not illegal to be a prostitute. They're not criminals. How can someone be so ignorant? Blows my mind.
  - swombat 7y ago
    Way to go throwing epithets around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kin... > In Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland), prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is legal,[2] but a number of related activities, including soliciting in a public place, kerb crawling, owning or managing a brothel, pimping and pandering, are crimes. In Northern Ireland, which previously had similar laws, paying for sex became illegal from 1 June 2015.[3] Laws are not always strictly enforced, and there are reports of police forces turning a blind eye to brothels.[4] Many brothels in cities such as Manchester, London and Cardiff operate under the name "massage parlours". A lot of stuff around prostitution that should be legal isn't.
- ryanm101 7y ago
  Isn't that the same though as if you have ill gotten funds / drugs, I steal them from you but you cant report that. I've still committed a crime against you but you cant report it due to the fact you committed a crime in the first place. Kinda hard to feel sorry for a criminal being unable to report a crime.....
  - kennywinker 7y ago
    I don’t even know where to start. You don’t feel sympathy for sex workers, who in many places are unable to report being assaulted? Your example is having something you stole stolen from you. That’s not the same as doing something illegal, and having a completely different crime done to you. “I was jaywalking, and someone robbed me when i arrived on the other side of the street”. I can’t report it because I would have to explain why I was in the middle of the street without having walked past the shops on that side.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >You don’t feel sympathy for sex workers, who in many places are unable to report being assaulted? I do, but then again, I don't consider sex workers criminals.
      - js2 7y ago
        The law does.
        coldtea 7y ago
        That's on the law.
        js2 7y ago
        I can’t make sense of your line of reasoning on this comment thread. I thought we were discussing why society would want to incentivize (or at least not disincentive) reporting a crime, even if the reporter is themselves a criminal. The idea is to eliminate at least one act of criminality instead of none. You’re argument seems to be: people who commit crimes shouldn’t expect protection under the law from other crimes. And when it was pointed out that not all crimes are equal, your reply is “but I don’t consider some of those things as crimes.”
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Imagine if the person raped committed a different crime, unrelated to the rape, for which there was evidence of that on their phone. Yeah, so a second crime was solved too. That's bad because?
  - fabricexpert 7y ago
    But that won't happen. If you have evidence on your phone of a crime you committed you're not going to give the phone to the police to look at. Therefor we end up with no crimes solved instead of one. Ontop of that, because everyone knows that a criminal can no longer report a rape, there's a carte blanche to rape anyone who falls into that category without consequence.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Ontop of that, because everyone knows that a criminal can no longer report a rape, there's a carte blanche to rape anyone who falls into that category without consequence. Could this serve as an incentive for less crime? Frivolity aside, "raping criminals" doesn't seem a very viable endeavor. They are, you know, criminals to begin with, and they, or their criminal friends, can perhaps do your head in... (Plus, blackmailing a criminal with evidence of their crime, sometimes for sex too, has happened since time immemorial - even between corrupt policemen and criminals-, it's not something uniquely enabled by mobile phones).
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        > Could this serve as an incentive for less crime? Was this sarcasm, or are you actually suggesting that criminals should fear extrajudicial "justice" of having crimes committed against them and being unable to report them?
        coldtea 7y ago
        Neither, it's a fact of life: criminals do fear extrajudicial "justice" of having crimes committed against them and being unable to report them (and have it happen to them frequently, as I say on the second paragraph above).
deogeo 7y ago
The defense can still request access to the phone at trial.
- ptaipale 7y ago
  Again this depends on jurisdiction. Is what you say the case in England?

fabricexpert 7y ago

Self incrimination is not the same as a false accusation. Imagine if the person raped committed a different crime, unrelated to the rape, for which there was evidence of that on their phone. In order to report the rape, they have to self incriminate themself for that crime as well? In this scenario any drug user, prostitute or other criminal has no protection from the law against being raped.

coherentpony 7y ago
Or even more simply, even if there's no "other" crime: it's my personal data. I have a right to privacy.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ryanm101 7y ago
  You also have an obligation to help the police solve the crime you reported by providing all and any relevant information. The issue is that people don't always know what information is relevant / they think stuff is too minor to mention. You wouldn't go to a doctors appointment and then say my body is private you cant examine me and expect them to go off just the info you provide. If the doctor asks to stick his finger up your rear to check your prostate you don't say er no thanks that's too private. You assume he has a good medical reason that he wants to do that and you let him confirm that you are healthy.
  - jbarberu 7y ago
    "If the doctor asks to stick his finger up your rear to check your prostate you don't say er no thanks that's too private" If you don't want your doctor to stick his finger up your butt, then that's exactly what you do. They don't have a right to finger your prostate, even though it might be beneficial to you.
    - eindiran 7y ago
      Yes, but then you don't get to be checked for prostate cancer.
      - coherentpony 7y ago
        That's 100% correct, and 100% not the conversation we are having. If you don't want a medical procedure, even if it would be beneficial to you, you can refuse it. It is your right (at least in the US).
        tracker1 7y ago
        And like the doctor that cannot diagnose you with appropriate information, the police can't prosecute the accused without potentially backing or detracting details.
  - esarbe 7y ago
    I think this is a rather bad analogy, since in the case of a crime, it's not only your anus that's going to be probed.
throw_political 7y ago
> prostitute or other criminal It's not illegal to be a prostitute. They're not criminals. How can someone be so ignorant? Blows my mind.
- swombat 7y ago
  Way to go throwing epithets around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kin... > In Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland), prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is legal,[2] but a number of related activities, including soliciting in a public place, kerb crawling, owning or managing a brothel, pimping and pandering, are crimes. In Northern Ireland, which previously had similar laws, paying for sex became illegal from 1 June 2015.[3] Laws are not always strictly enforced, and there are reports of police forces turning a blind eye to brothels.[4] Many brothels in cities such as Manchester, London and Cardiff operate under the name "massage parlours". A lot of stuff around prostitution that should be legal isn't.
ryanm101 7y ago
Isn't that the same though as if you have ill gotten funds / drugs, I steal them from you but you cant report that. I've still committed a crime against you but you cant report it due to the fact you committed a crime in the first place. Kinda hard to feel sorry for a criminal being unable to report a crime.....
- kennywinker 7y ago
  I don’t even know where to start. You don’t feel sympathy for sex workers, who in many places are unable to report being assaulted? Your example is having something you stole stolen from you. That’s not the same as doing something illegal, and having a completely different crime done to you. “I was jaywalking, and someone robbed me when i arrived on the other side of the street”. I can’t report it because I would have to explain why I was in the middle of the street without having walked past the shops on that side.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >You don’t feel sympathy for sex workers, who in many places are unable to report being assaulted? I do, but then again, I don't consider sex workers criminals.
    - js2 7y ago
      The law does.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        That's on the law.
        js2 7y ago
        I can’t make sense of your line of reasoning on this comment thread. I thought we were discussing why society would want to incentivize (or at least not disincentive) reporting a crime, even if the reporter is themselves a criminal. The idea is to eliminate at least one act of criminality instead of none. You’re argument seems to be: people who commit crimes shouldn’t expect protection under the law from other crimes. And when it was pointed out that not all crimes are equal, your reply is “but I don’t consider some of those things as crimes.”
coldtea 7y ago
>Imagine if the person raped committed a different crime, unrelated to the rape, for which there was evidence of that on their phone. Yeah, so a second crime was solved too. That's bad because?
- fabricexpert 7y ago
  But that won't happen. If you have evidence on your phone of a crime you committed you're not going to give the phone to the police to look at. Therefor we end up with no crimes solved instead of one. Ontop of that, because everyone knows that a criminal can no longer report a rape, there's a carte blanche to rape anyone who falls into that category without consequence.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Ontop of that, because everyone knows that a criminal can no longer report a rape, there's a carte blanche to rape anyone who falls into that category without consequence. Could this serve as an incentive for less crime? Frivolity aside, "raping criminals" doesn't seem a very viable endeavor. They are, you know, criminals to begin with, and they, or their criminal friends, can perhaps do your head in... (Plus, blackmailing a criminal with evidence of their crime, sometimes for sex too, has happened since time immemorial - even between corrupt policemen and criminals-, it's not something uniquely enabled by mobile phones).
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      > Could this serve as an incentive for less crime? Was this sarcasm, or are you actually suggesting that criminals should fear extrajudicial "justice" of having crimes committed against them and being unable to report them?
      - coldtea 7y ago
        Neither, it's a fact of life: criminals do fear extrajudicial "justice" of having crimes committed against them and being unable to report them (and have it happen to them frequently, as I say on the second paragraph above).

deogeo 7y ago

The defense can still request access to the phone at trial.

ptaipale 7y ago
Again this depends on jurisdiction. Is what you say the case in England?