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From what I've read the reusables have to be used ~70 times to be more environmentally friendly than the current disposables. I think the easiest win would be

by pg_bot 7y ago

From what I've read the reusables have to be used ~70 times to be more environmentally friendly than the current disposables. I think the easiest win would be designating between sit down and take out customers. Sit down customers could be given porcelain or some other washable container. However this would increase labor costs for businesses so you don't automatically get a free win.

jdavis703 7y ago
I’ve been searching for this data for a while. Mind sharing your sources?
- pg_bot 7y ago
  http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Fisher2008_DisposableCupThesis.pdf http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03...
SllX 7y ago
Plenty of cafés already have coffee mugs and glasses. I’m drinking a cup of coffee from a Homer Laughlin mug warmed atop the espresso machine at a small mom and pop establishment right now. When I’m done with it, it will go into a bus bin a few feet away and washed by the staff here whenever they’re not too busy to do a load of dishes. If I had brought my own cup, it would have been a 10¢ discount but to be honest, their mugs are better than mine.
- jspash 7y ago
  Surely the 10¢ discount should be for the people who _don't_ bring their own cup. But since it's a small shop I assume the 10¢ "fee" is to subsidise the dishwashing labour.
  - SllX 7y ago
    The idea is you’re not paying for the takeaway cup, lid and (usually) sleeve, and you’re not using a store provided cup either.
baroffoos 7y ago
This stat gets thrown around for a lot of different kinds of reusable products but what no one ever mentions is what does environmentally friendly actually mean. When I have looked it up its always simply looking at energy usage to produce the product when by far the biggest impact of our throwaway products is that they end up blowing around the streets or they fall in to the ocean. And even if you do put them in the recycling bin they mostly end up shipped to the 3rd world to be burned or thrown in the ocean. Also even just looking about the energy usage, 70 times is quite low. A proper coffee cup lasts a lot longer than 70 uses. Really they don't ever break unless dropped.
- sjy 7y ago
  I have a few reusable, resealable glass coffee cups, and I don’t know that I got 70 uses out of them before I dropped one as I was washing it and it shattered. I’ll be buying plastic reusable cups next time, even though they’re not as nice to use, because for someone as clumsy as me, the risk of breaking a glass object that needs to be hand-washed regularly and is intended to be used while moving around is quite high.
  - exclusiv 7y ago
    Stainless steel is ideal. Wide mouth Rtic or similar is easy to hand clean if you don't have a dishwasher.
- michaelt 7y ago
  Depends on the ratio of one-time customers to regular customers. I go to a coffee shop maybe once a year - perhaps I'm running late and didn't have time to make coffee at home, or I'm out with friends and they spontaneously suggest getting coffee. Needless to say, I've never had a reusable mug with me in such circumstances! So customers with behaviour like mine are going to be getting a new mug every time, or not patronising coffee shops. If one in every 70 customers is someone like me, switching to a 70-use-to-break-even cup would be a net loss for the environment even if you get 100% reuse among regular coffee shop patrons.
bArray 7y ago
> From what I've read the reusables have to be used ~70 > times to be more environmentally friendly than the current > disposables. Is this assuming it goes into landfill afterwards? Does it look better if you use something more easily recyclable? I think metal is a pretty good candidate: you can get it pretty thin, it's durable, keeps the coffee hot, light and easily cleaned. You just need to ensure that customers are not burning fingers or lips on the containers. > However this would increase labor costs for businesses so > you don't automatically get a free win. I think you could probably build relatively low cost cup washing machines, especially as you control the shape of the cup itself.
- antisthenes 7y ago
  How about that corrugated cardboard heat protector for the reusable metal cup? I think combined with reusable metal cups, it could help.
  - bArray 7y ago
    I was thinking about that, but I'm not sure cardboard is a very high grade recyclable (materials made from it tend to be low quality). I was trying to think of something that itself could be more easily reused, like wood (although manufacturing would be awful).
- maccard 7y ago
  > Is this assuming it goes into landfill afterwards? Does it look better if you use something more easily recyclable? Yes, it does, and yes it does. However, getting the waste to the right place is also problematic. According to BBC[0] despite the fact that the cups are technically recyclable, lamost all of them end up in landfill anyway. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43739043 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43739043
  - bArray 7y ago
    That and a lot of recyclable material ends up pilled up, with China almost completely refusing to accept it for processing.
ClassyJacket 7y ago
"I think the easiest win would be designating between sit down and take out customers. Sit down customers could be given porcelain or some other washable container." Interesting, what country are you from that doesn't do this? I can't think of a coffee place I've been to that doesn't, in Australia and Europe. Even McDonald's has porcelain cups for sit down customers.
- zeta0134 7y ago
  At least in all the Starbucks shops I've visited in the United States so far, the common practice is for all coffee to be served in to-go containers. There's no eating in distinction, and while the shops sell (and accept) reusable cups, that isn't the default. If you eat in, and don't bring your own cup, you're served coffee in a disposable container.
- TheTrotters 7y ago
  Yes, that’s very often the case in Europe (sometimes there’s no choice at train stations and airports) but I haven’t seen that in US.
PascLeRasc 7y ago
70 times seems big until you consider that it's just over two months, or 3.5 months if you only consider weekdays. I have a travel mug (Zojirushi, highly recommend!) that I've used for 3 years and it's still in like-new condition, and a Camelbak water bottle that's over 4 years old and still fine. Using disposable cups just needs to cost more and that needs to be obvious to the consumer. My local Aldi solved it - even though paper bags are only 5¢, everyone brings their own reusable bag.
gnicholas 7y ago
> reusables have to be used ~70 times to be more environmentally friendly than the current disposables Another commenter linked to a research paper [1] that includes this number. It's worth noting a few things: * This was comparing ceramic mugs versus disposable cups. They assumed that reusable plastic cups would be more favorable (but did not opine on travel mugs, which are the more reasonable substitute among to-go customers). * The study was done by Starbucks, among other organizations (may have a bias to make disposable paper look not-so-bad). * Another study apparently showed 1,000 use threshold, but the author of the below-linked paper considered that study to insufficiently account for all of the costs of paper cups (deforestation, etc.). full text: * There has been a long-standing debate over the comparative energy-efficiencies of disposable products and reusable dishware. A study that is frequently cited is one conducted by Martin Hocking, a professor at The University of Victoria in British Columbia. Hocking (1994) reports that one would have to use a reusable cup as much as 1,000 times in order to justify the higher energy requirement during production. Yet this study omits the impacts of deforestation, transportation, packaging, and disposal; a more complete picture is needed to truly debate the environmental costs of disposable versus reusable cups. Starbucks teamed up with the Alliance for Environmental Innovation to more accurately compare the two, naming reusable products the more environmentally-friendly option (Alliance for Environmental Innovation, 2000). Their study found that using ceramic mugs in place of disposable cups would reduce resource consumption and pollution to an astounding extent, even including the impacts of manufacturing, use, and dishwashing.* 1: http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Fisher2008_DisposableCupThesis.pdf http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03...
shard 7y ago
Some coffee shops in Korea now enforce this rule. If you are staying in the coffee shop to drink your coffee, you are given porcelain cups. If you ask for a disposable cup, you are told that you may not drink your coffee in the coffee shop, there may be some legal reason for it.
lsc 7y ago
most places seem to offer ceramic for sit-down customers? I mean, maybe not starbucks; most Starbucks I've been in don't really seem to have much of a sit-down area, so "for here or to go" isn't really a question. But most nicer places have them; it seems to go with having seating. I personally have a strong preference for ceramic (not enough to carry my own, but when I'm going to be in a place, I ask for a ceramic cup, simply because it is a more pleasurable experience than a to go cup)
- TheTrotters 7y ago
  In Europe almost all Starbucks locations have ceramic mugs. The only exceptions I’ve come across are at train stations and airports.

by pg_bot 7y ago

jdavis703 7y ago

I’ve been searching for this data for a while. Mind sharing your sources?

pg_bot 7y ago
http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Fisher2008_DisposableCupThesis.pdf http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03...

SllX 7y ago

Plenty of cafés already have coffee mugs and glasses. I’m drinking a cup of coffee from a Homer Laughlin mug warmed atop the espresso machine at a small mom and pop establishment right now. When I’m done with it, it will go into a bus bin a few feet away and washed by the staff here whenever they’re not too busy to do a load of dishes. If I had brought my own cup, it would have been a 10¢ discount but to be honest, their mugs are better than mine.

jspash 7y ago
Surely the 10¢ discount should be for the people who _don't_ bring their own cup. But since it's a small shop I assume the 10¢ "fee" is to subsidise the dishwashing labour.
- SllX 7y ago
  The idea is you’re not paying for the takeaway cup, lid and (usually) sleeve, and you’re not using a store provided cup either.

baroffoos 7y ago

This stat gets thrown around for a lot of different kinds of reusable products but what no one ever mentions is what does environmentally friendly actually mean. When I have looked it up its always simply looking at energy usage to produce the product when by far the biggest impact of our throwaway products is that they end up blowing around the streets or they fall in to the ocean. And even if you do put them in the recycling bin they mostly end up shipped to the 3rd world to be burned or thrown in the ocean. Also even just looking about the energy usage, 70 times is quite low. A proper coffee cup lasts a lot longer than 70 uses. Really they don't ever break unless dropped.

sjy 7y ago
I have a few reusable, resealable glass coffee cups, and I don’t know that I got 70 uses out of them before I dropped one as I was washing it and it shattered. I’ll be buying plastic reusable cups next time, even though they’re not as nice to use, because for someone as clumsy as me, the risk of breaking a glass object that needs to be hand-washed regularly and is intended to be used while moving around is quite high.
- exclusiv 7y ago
  Stainless steel is ideal. Wide mouth Rtic or similar is easy to hand clean if you don't have a dishwasher.
michaelt 7y ago
Depends on the ratio of one-time customers to regular customers. I go to a coffee shop maybe once a year - perhaps I'm running late and didn't have time to make coffee at home, or I'm out with friends and they spontaneously suggest getting coffee. Needless to say, I've never had a reusable mug with me in such circumstances! So customers with behaviour like mine are going to be getting a new mug every time, or not patronising coffee shops. If one in every 70 customers is someone like me, switching to a 70-use-to-break-even cup would be a net loss for the environment even if you get 100% reuse among regular coffee shop patrons.

bArray 7y ago

> From what I've read the reusables have to be used ~70 > times to be more environmentally friendly than the current > disposables. Is this assuming it goes into landfill afterwards? Does it look better if you use something more easily recyclable? I think metal is a pretty good candidate: you can get it pretty thin, it's durable, keeps the coffee hot, light and easily cleaned. You just need to ensure that customers are not burning fingers or lips on the containers. > However this would increase labor costs for businesses so > you don't automatically get a free win. I think you could probably build relatively low cost cup washing machines, especially as you control the shape of the cup itself.

antisthenes 7y ago
How about that corrugated cardboard heat protector for the reusable metal cup? I think combined with reusable metal cups, it could help.
- bArray 7y ago
  I was thinking about that, but I'm not sure cardboard is a very high grade recyclable (materials made from it tend to be low quality). I was trying to think of something that itself could be more easily reused, like wood (although manufacturing would be awful).
maccard 7y ago
> Is this assuming it goes into landfill afterwards? Does it look better if you use something more easily recyclable? Yes, it does, and yes it does. However, getting the waste to the right place is also problematic. According to BBC[0] despite the fact that the cups are technically recyclable, lamost all of them end up in landfill anyway. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43739043 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43739043
- bArray 7y ago
  That and a lot of recyclable material ends up pilled up, with China almost completely refusing to accept it for processing.

ClassyJacket 7y ago

"I think the easiest win would be designating between sit down and take out customers. Sit down customers could be given porcelain or some other washable container." Interesting, what country are you from that doesn't do this? I can't think of a coffee place I've been to that doesn't, in Australia and Europe. Even McDonald's has porcelain cups for sit down customers.

zeta0134 7y ago
At least in all the Starbucks shops I've visited in the United States so far, the common practice is for all coffee to be served in to-go containers. There's no eating in distinction, and while the shops sell (and accept) reusable cups, that isn't the default. If you eat in, and don't bring your own cup, you're served coffee in a disposable container.
TheTrotters 7y ago
Yes, that’s very often the case in Europe (sometimes there’s no choice at train stations and airports) but I haven’t seen that in US.

PascLeRasc 7y ago

70 times seems big until you consider that it's just over two months, or 3.5 months if you only consider weekdays. I have a travel mug (Zojirushi, highly recommend!) that I've used for 3 years and it's still in like-new condition, and a Camelbak water bottle that's over 4 years old and still fine. Using disposable cups just needs to cost more and that needs to be obvious to the consumer. My local Aldi solved it - even though paper bags are only 5¢, everyone brings their own reusable bag.

gnicholas 7y ago

> reusables have to be used ~70 times to be more environmentally friendly than the current disposables Another commenter linked to a research paper [1] that includes this number. It's worth noting a few things: * This was comparing ceramic mugs versus disposable cups. They assumed that reusable plastic cups would be more favorable (but did not opine on travel mugs, which are the more reasonable substitute among to-go customers). * The study was done by Starbucks, among other organizations (may have a bias to make disposable paper look not-so-bad). * Another study apparently showed 1,000 use threshold, but the author of the below-linked paper considered that study to insufficiently account for all of the costs of paper cups (deforestation, etc.). full text: * There has been a long-standing debate over the comparative energy-efficiencies of disposable products and reusable dishware. A study that is frequently cited is one conducted by Martin Hocking, a professor at The University of Victoria in British Columbia. Hocking (1994) reports that one would have to use a reusable cup as much as 1,000 times in order to justify the higher energy requirement during production. Yet this study omits the impacts of deforestation, transportation, packaging, and disposal; a more complete picture is needed to truly debate the environmental costs of disposable versus reusable cups. Starbucks teamed up with the Alliance for Environmental Innovation to more accurately compare the two, naming reusable products the more environmentally-friendly option (Alliance for Environmental Innovation, 2000). Their study found that using ceramic mugs in place of disposable cups would reduce resource consumption and pollution to an astounding extent, even including the impacts of manufacturing, use, and dishwashing.* 1: http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Fisher2008_DisposableCupThesis.pdf http://www.recyclingadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03...

shard 7y ago

Some coffee shops in Korea now enforce this rule. If you are staying in the coffee shop to drink your coffee, you are given porcelain cups. If you ask for a disposable cup, you are told that you may not drink your coffee in the coffee shop, there may be some legal reason for it.

lsc 7y ago

most places seem to offer ceramic for sit-down customers? I mean, maybe not starbucks; most Starbucks I've been in don't really seem to have much of a sit-down area, so "for here or to go" isn't really a question. But most nicer places have them; it seems to go with having seating. I personally have a strong preference for ceramic (not enough to carry my own, but when I'm going to be in a place, I ask for a ceramic cup, simply because it is a more pleasurable experience than a to go cup)

TheTrotters 7y ago
In Europe almost all Starbucks locations have ceramic mugs. The only exceptions I’ve come across are at train stations and airports.