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I don't know how people hired and paid by the government in place are automatically less suspicious than volunteers who just want to help the community. Yes, I

I don't know how people hired and paid by the government in place are automatically less suspicious than volunteers who just want to help the community. Yes, I have the opposite bias :) In France the counting process is open and anyone can observe it and report any irregularity. Also the way it is done, you have to have a conspiracy of a least 6 people if you want to meddle the result. In practice, I've observed that rather than fanatics, volunteers are usually mild people who are just doing the work as a nice sunday activity who doubles as a democratic tradition. They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community. Of course, my sampling rate is quite low, so take that as a grain of salt.

Fnoord 7y ago
I've been counting 3 times now in The Netherlands, soon (if I get picked which is likely cause Amsterdam needs counters) is going to be my 4th time. You get reimbursed some money (I think it is about 60 EUR for like 4 hours of counting, and it lasts until 1 AM often but depends per region). Doing the course before you count yields you another 25 EUR (I only did this once). If it weren't paid, then that'd be discrimination to people who cannot afford to take a day off for something like this (poor people). For us it is already tough as it is to get this show on the road with a young kid. I can recommend to give it a whirl! You meet different people every time. I recommend to not discuss politics. Some people will try to, but its best to divert away from such. 1) You can't change the outcome anyway 2) Hence its pointless, and can only lead to fractures in the team 3) You and everyone else should aspire to remain neutral to avoid any potential bias. > They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community. Here in NL the people who do that often have community service because they did something illegal and got caught or because they're youth (youth have to do voluntary work during their high school). The amount of people who go mental against plastic on the streets are zero to none, sadly.
- littlestymaar 7y ago
  > 4 hours of counting, and it lasts until 1 AM often I'm curious, what makes it so long ? Is it your voting system, or something else ? In France, each time I went counting, it was always less than two hours. > > They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community. I'm part of both groups of people ;).
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    Usually different elections are combined such as referendum (such as this one [1] referendum is gone now), Dutch water boards [2], municipality, or other elections. For me it starts at 9 PM when polling stations are closed, and ends at about 1 AM give or take. People who are part of the polling place team sit there all day long, but they also get paid more (what I said was for counters only). Basically the people I speak to have next day free (took day off, self employed, or retired). Last time I only had about 4 hours of sleep. I need 8, so next day when I got home I slept 4 hours extra. I cannot do that easily anymore. I'd have the same issue on Sunday -> Monday, but not so much on Friday/Saturday -> Saturday/Sunday. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_op_de_inlichtingen-_en_veiligheidsdiensten_2017 https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_op_de_inlichtingen-_en_vei... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands)
- baud147258 7y ago
  > people who cannot afford to take a day off Elections aren't on Sunday there? In France all elections are Sunday so that as many people as possible can go vote.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    Usually on Wednesday evening. Now with the EU election its on Thursday. There's something to say about Sunday as well but I guess some very religious people wouldn't like that (bible belt).
    - baud147258 7y ago
      I don't know about the very religious people, I'm fairly religious myself (but not of the denomination usually found in the Bible belt), but I don't mind going to vote on a Sunday, I usually go before or after the celebration. I prefer not to have to use PTO to go voting. Another method would be to have the election day being a national holiday, like in Israel.
BurningFrog 7y ago
The process is open and observable to the public in Sweden as well. Using the word "fanatics" was needless. I was vaguely thinking of the idea that "nobody who wants to be president should ever be allowed to". I don't doubt the unpaid French system works well. I'm happy to report the paid Swedish system also works well. There might not be much for us to fight about. Sorry :)

Fnoord 7y ago

I've been counting 3 times now in The Netherlands, soon (if I get picked which is likely cause Amsterdam needs counters) is going to be my 4th time. You get reimbursed some money (I think it is about 60 EUR for like 4 hours of counting, and it lasts until 1 AM often but depends per region). Doing the course before you count yields you another 25 EUR (I only did this once). If it weren't paid, then that'd be discrimination to people who cannot afford to take a day off for something like this (poor people). For us it is already tough as it is to get this show on the road with a young kid. I can recommend to give it a whirl! You meet different people every time. I recommend to not discuss politics. Some people will try to, but its best to divert away from such. 1) You can't change the outcome anyway 2) Hence its pointless, and can only lead to fractures in the team 3) You and everyone else should aspire to remain neutral to avoid any potential bias. > They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community. Here in NL the people who do that often have community service because they did something illegal and got caught or because they're youth (youth have to do voluntary work during their high school). The amount of people who go mental against plastic on the streets are zero to none, sadly.

littlestymaar 7y ago
> 4 hours of counting, and it lasts until 1 AM often I'm curious, what makes it so long ? Is it your voting system, or something else ? In France, each time I went counting, it was always less than two hours. > > They are the same people you see picking up trash or doing other menial work for the community. I'm part of both groups of people ;).
- Fnoord 7y ago
  Usually different elections are combined such as referendum (such as this one [1] referendum is gone now), Dutch water boards [2], municipality, or other elections. For me it starts at 9 PM when polling stations are closed, and ends at about 1 AM give or take. People who are part of the polling place team sit there all day long, but they also get paid more (what I said was for counters only). Basically the people I speak to have next day free (took day off, self employed, or retired). Last time I only had about 4 hours of sleep. I need 8, so next day when I got home I slept 4 hours extra. I cannot do that easily anymore. I'd have the same issue on Sunday -> Monday, but not so much on Friday/Saturday -> Saturday/Sunday. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_op_de_inlichtingen-_en_veiligheidsdiensten_2017 https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_op_de_inlichtingen-_en_vei... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands)
baud147258 7y ago
> people who cannot afford to take a day off Elections aren't on Sunday there? In France all elections are Sunday so that as many people as possible can go vote.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  Usually on Wednesday evening. Now with the EU election its on Thursday. There's something to say about Sunday as well but I guess some very religious people wouldn't like that (bible belt).
  - baud147258 7y ago
    I don't know about the very religious people, I'm fairly religious myself (but not of the denomination usually found in the Bible belt), but I don't mind going to vote on a Sunday, I usually go before or after the celebration. I prefer not to have to use PTO to go voting. Another method would be to have the election day being a national holiday, like in Israel.

BurningFrog 7y ago

The process is open and observable to the public in Sweden as well. Using the word "fanatics" was needless. I was vaguely thinking of the idea that "nobody who wants to be president should ever be allowed to". I don't doubt the unpaid French system works well. I'm happy to report the paid Swedish system also works well. There might not be much for us to fight about. Sorry :)