4 ms·

I think you ought to compare a driver running a red light vs a cyclist running a red light to make this point. I might even agree with you, but speeding is con

I think you ought to compare a driver running a red light vs a cyclist running a red light to make this point. I might even agree with you, but speeding is conceivably even safer than going the speed limit if everyone else around you is doing the same thing no matter what the law says. Running traffic signals on the other hand is just plain stupid and self-centered no matter what you're piloting at the time.

btrettel 7y ago
I can compare drivers running red lights to cyclists running red lights based on my experience. I don't believe there's any hard data on this. From what I can tell, drivers tend to run red lights either because the light just changed and they couldn't stop in time or because they're distracted. In contrast, cyclists who run red lights tend to wait for traffic to clear. I didn't realize the difference until I tried talking to cyclists who run red lights (not recommended by the way; they tend to be jerks). So in that sense the two are not comparable. Plus, as bikes tend to weigh less and travel less fast than cars, the potential for harm for a cyclist running a red light is greatly reduced compared against a driver running a red light. Here are some helmet cam videos that I took that show red light running drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv_3D-1ehA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv_3D-1ehA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JispW0pTQGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JispW0pTQGA After the first video, I saw that the driver stopped nearby, so I went to speak with them. They admitted they were distracted. I have no idea what happened in the second video. If I were not paying attention in both cases I would not be writing this post now. In contrast, if a cyclist did the same then I'd probably be here. That's not to say that all cyclists who run red lights look carefully. Here's a helmet cam video that I took which shows a cyclist brazenly running a red light in a way that I think is particularly dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHRA4060C-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHRA4060C-k And here's a more recent video of mine showing a Bird scooter rider running a red light: https://drive.google.com/open?id=19Bl1ZhMvxbLliIyNkNe_Aj3QWDbPznzp https://drive.google.com/open?id=19Bl1ZhMvxbLliIyNkNe_Aj3QWD... (Apologies for the language.) This last one was probably the most dangerous time someone ran a red light that I've personally seen. I was wearing a high-viz jacket at the time and find it hard to believe they would not see me if they looked. They might have been blinded by the sun. As for speeding being safer, sure, that's true sometimes, but what's the net effect? Just focusing on the good isn't representative. I also sometimes see people bring the time saved from speeding into consideration, but in my experience speeding doesn't save much time unless you're on the highway. If you're in a more densely populated area with traffic lights, your speed is more limited by the traffic lights than anything else. I know this as a cyclist because it's not uncommon for me to see the same people at each light during my commute. The effective traffic speed is doable for a cyclist. Speeding won't get you there faster.
- scottlegrand2 7y ago
  I have to say I don't really care about cyclists obeying the speed limit or not, but I have had way too many near misses with bicyclists just speeding through stop signs and red lights than any other traffic hazard. Then there are the ones who kick your car if they perceive you it's a rude driver, but I do grass let's stay on subject. I think it should be a case closed Darwin award if I hit them and kill them if I have the right of way, but it's awfully inconvenient, and their family will probably sue for whatever reason they pull out of their keister about my irresponsible behavior obeying traffic laws or something like that. I used to know a paramedic who would make sure that the ride to the hospital for such a cyclist was super bumpy and unpleasant so as to make that experience memorable in the hopes of encouraging them not to repeat it.
  - btrettel 7y ago
    > I think it should be a case closed Darwin award if I hit them and kill them if I have the right of way I'll be sure to stay away from you. > I used to know a paramedic who would make sure that the ride to the hospital for such a cyclist was super bumpy and unpleasant so as to make that experience memorable in the hopes of encouraging them not to repeat it. That's sadistic. Most of the time it's not the cyclist's fault.
    - scottlegrand2 7y ago
      It's not the cyclist's fault when he/she runs a stop sign or a traffic light? Explain? It would certainly be my fault if I did that in the car.
      - btrettel 7y ago
        Running a stop sign or traffic light should not be a death sentence. Plus, there have been many times when I've been on the receiving end of dangerous "punishment passes" from drivers who believe I'm doing something illegal when I'm not. I've had people pass me aggressively because they think I'm going too slow, when the speed limit is 15 mph and I'm going 17-18 mph. I've have people pass me while yelling to get in the bike lane when there was no bike lane and I was in the sharrow lane on an official city bike route. Etc. Just because you believe someone is breaking the law does not give you the right to kill or otherwise harm them, particularly if you're wrong about the law. Edit: I believe I misread you about the paramedic. I read it as the paramedic would give rough rides to all cyclists (and most of the time it's not the cyclist's fault that they were in a crash), but you meant they gave rough rides to only cyclists who ran red lights or stop signs. That's still bad and sadistic as far as I'm concerned.

btrettel 7y ago

I can compare drivers running red lights to cyclists running red lights based on my experience. I don't believe there's any hard data on this. From what I can tell, drivers tend to run red lights either because the light just changed and they couldn't stop in time or because they're distracted. In contrast, cyclists who run red lights tend to wait for traffic to clear. I didn't realize the difference until I tried talking to cyclists who run red lights (not recommended by the way; they tend to be jerks). So in that sense the two are not comparable. Plus, as bikes tend to weigh less and travel less fast than cars, the potential for harm for a cyclist running a red light is greatly reduced compared against a driver running a red light. Here are some helmet cam videos that I took that show red light running drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv_3D-1ehA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv_3D-1ehA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JispW0pTQGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JispW0pTQGA After the first video, I saw that the driver stopped nearby, so I went to speak with them. They admitted they were distracted. I have no idea what happened in the second video. If I were not paying attention in both cases I would not be writing this post now. In contrast, if a cyclist did the same then I'd probably be here. That's not to say that all cyclists who run red lights look carefully. Here's a helmet cam video that I took which shows a cyclist brazenly running a red light in a way that I think is particularly dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHRA4060C-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHRA4060C-k And here's a more recent video of mine showing a Bird scooter rider running a red light: https://drive.google.com/open?id=19Bl1ZhMvxbLliIyNkNe_Aj3QWDbPznzp https://drive.google.com/open?id=19Bl1ZhMvxbLliIyNkNe_Aj3QWD... (Apologies for the language.) This last one was probably the most dangerous time someone ran a red light that I've personally seen. I was wearing a high-viz jacket at the time and find it hard to believe they would not see me if they looked. They might have been blinded by the sun. As for speeding being safer, sure, that's true sometimes, but what's the net effect? Just focusing on the good isn't representative. I also sometimes see people bring the time saved from speeding into consideration, but in my experience speeding doesn't save much time unless you're on the highway. If you're in a more densely populated area with traffic lights, your speed is more limited by the traffic lights than anything else. I know this as a cyclist because it's not uncommon for me to see the same people at each light during my commute. The effective traffic speed is doable for a cyclist. Speeding won't get you there faster.

scottlegrand2 7y ago
I have to say I don't really care about cyclists obeying the speed limit or not, but I have had way too many near misses with bicyclists just speeding through stop signs and red lights than any other traffic hazard. Then there are the ones who kick your car if they perceive you it's a rude driver, but I do grass let's stay on subject. I think it should be a case closed Darwin award if I hit them and kill them if I have the right of way, but it's awfully inconvenient, and their family will probably sue for whatever reason they pull out of their keister about my irresponsible behavior obeying traffic laws or something like that. I used to know a paramedic who would make sure that the ride to the hospital for such a cyclist was super bumpy and unpleasant so as to make that experience memorable in the hopes of encouraging them not to repeat it.
- btrettel 7y ago
  > I think it should be a case closed Darwin award if I hit them and kill them if I have the right of way I'll be sure to stay away from you. > I used to know a paramedic who would make sure that the ride to the hospital for such a cyclist was super bumpy and unpleasant so as to make that experience memorable in the hopes of encouraging them not to repeat it. That's sadistic. Most of the time it's not the cyclist's fault.
  - scottlegrand2 7y ago
    It's not the cyclist's fault when he/she runs a stop sign or a traffic light? Explain? It would certainly be my fault if I did that in the car.
    - btrettel 7y ago
      Running a stop sign or traffic light should not be a death sentence. Plus, there have been many times when I've been on the receiving end of dangerous "punishment passes" from drivers who believe I'm doing something illegal when I'm not. I've had people pass me aggressively because they think I'm going too slow, when the speed limit is 15 mph and I'm going 17-18 mph. I've have people pass me while yelling to get in the bike lane when there was no bike lane and I was in the sharrow lane on an official city bike route. Etc. Just because you believe someone is breaking the law does not give you the right to kill or otherwise harm them, particularly if you're wrong about the law. Edit: I believe I misread you about the paramedic. I read it as the paramedic would give rough rides to all cyclists (and most of the time it's not the cyclist's fault that they were in a crash), but you meant they gave rough rides to only cyclists who ran red lights or stop signs. That's still bad and sadistic as far as I'm concerned.