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Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Other than that, I agree with your assessment: Taiwan's thriving democracy undermines and cont

Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Other than that, I agree with your assessment: Taiwan's thriving democracy undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party claim to power, in particular the CCP's narrative that democracy is neither needed nor wanted, nor desirable for the Chinese people.

dforrestwilson 7y ago
Who would possibly downvote this? Occam’s Razor.
- sbzodnsbd 7y ago
  Well I don’t think they should be down voted, but it is wrong. Taiwan is de-jure a part of China. China just happens to be in the curious state of having two competing entities claiming to be the legitimate government. Both ROC and Beijing agree Taiwan is China. The “C” in ROC is China!
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    Taiwanese people I know don’t believe this, and my impression is that the Taiwanese government’s continuing claim over China is mostly a matter of historical inertia and symbolism rather than a serious practical goal. But many mainland Chinese do, and the government spends considerable effort cajoling/bullying the rest of the world to not recognize Taiwanese sovereignty. From what I can tell there is a real threat China might sometime attempt military conquest.
    - sbzodnsbd 7y ago
      Hence the “de jure” Anyway it’s complicated. Some in ROC want independence. Some don’t. Some would like to join Beijing (many investors from ROC). Most probably want the whole thing to be on the low and the ROC ignored lest the dragon is awakened. But regardless what civilians want, being part of China affects the actions of Taipei more than any other issue.
      - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
        I am not sure even de jure the situation is clear. I think the following is the case (but I'm not a legal scholar, so please correct me if I'm wrong!) When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of what was called "Taiwan Province". The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) both did not specify that Taiwan was a part of mainland China. I think formally/legally Taiwan was Japanese until 1952 but Japan was under allied control at the time. The question of Taiwan's legal status was left open in the aforementioned peace treaties. This is the legal/technical root cause for the problems with Taiwan's legal status even today. So, as far as I can see: de facto Taiwan is an independent nation. And de jure it's ... unclear. Finally, let's bear in mind that in a very real sense there is no such thing as "international law", much of what is called international law is really just voluntary consent of states.
  - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
    Taiwan only holds on to the historical claim to ruling China because a change in status is feared to trigger the China's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion on Taiwan by China. Better not to "rock the boat" at this point. (Taiwan probably also sees this as a bargaining chip, to be given up at an opportune moment (like the Kinmen Islands), in exchange for something else, e.g. China accepting Taiwan's independence. I suspect this would have been possible at some point when China was weak but seems unlikely now.)
- Y_Y 7y ago
  Well the Republic of China (a.k.a. Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (the big communist one) would both disagree with this (in principle). Of course in reality Taiwan is at this point a separate nation that some people go to great lengths to conspicuously ignore, but this isn't the "party line" on either side. The revolution in China is still within living memory and there's more than just Xi Jin-pingbots who don't see the status quo as valid, de jure.
- dang 7y ago
  This comment breaks two of the site guidelines: the one against commenting about voting on comments, and the one against insinuations of astroturfing. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not taking threads in those directions in the future? They lead to uninteresting places.
est31 7y ago
> Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Depends on the view. The central Chinese government certainly considers Taiwan to be its province, and achieved that Taiwan has no seat in the UN, and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country. Taiwan themselves maintain a claim to the entire mainland as well, they just disagree on who should hold power. There are also countries that recognize Taiwanese independence, as there are countries that recognize Taiwan's claim over of all of China.
- dionian 7y ago
  > and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country but that's a close as they ever got to having their flag fly on taiwan...
- anaccountwow 7y ago
  US Customs and Border Control seems to think it's a country ;) https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/eligibility https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-...
  - taobility 7y ago
    US also think Tibet is an individual country, but who cares
    - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
      Tibetans!
      - taobility 7y ago
        yelling on Tibet's street, not here.
    - JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
      It’s a lot more than the US that think Tibet is a country.
caprese 7y ago
Being passionate about that fickle national identity doesn't solidify the claim more. It enjoys independence and autonomy, but the rest is so nuanced to instead be a complete mockery to the whole nation state concept. I don't think its worth debating. You can negotiate directly with Taiwan, and accept their rule of law to navigate business. Isn't that all you need to know? some people in Taiwan would be offended by saying "Taiwan, China" by assuming that you are saying it is a province of the PRC. other people in Taiwan would not care, while yet other people in Taiwan would appreciate that you recognized that Taiwan is the legitimate China and you just wrote the Taiwan part for descriptive purposes, ALL WHILE you are just trying to maintain consensus with the other people you work with which includes your own country and also the PRC, and then a random Taiwanese-American will call you "racist" for "mistakenly" thinking their heritage is from "China" instead of Taiwan, projecting their own exile as part of an amorphous underrepresented Asian-American diaspora amongst ignorant foreigners, and its like "no, buddy."

dforrestwilson 7y ago

Who would possibly downvote this? Occam’s Razor.

sbzodnsbd 7y ago
Well I don’t think they should be down voted, but it is wrong. Taiwan is de-jure a part of China. China just happens to be in the curious state of having two competing entities claiming to be the legitimate government. Both ROC and Beijing agree Taiwan is China. The “C” in ROC is China!
- jacobolus 7y ago
  Taiwanese people I know don’t believe this, and my impression is that the Taiwanese government’s continuing claim over China is mostly a matter of historical inertia and symbolism rather than a serious practical goal. But many mainland Chinese do, and the government spends considerable effort cajoling/bullying the rest of the world to not recognize Taiwanese sovereignty. From what I can tell there is a real threat China might sometime attempt military conquest.
  - sbzodnsbd 7y ago
    Hence the “de jure” Anyway it’s complicated. Some in ROC want independence. Some don’t. Some would like to join Beijing (many investors from ROC). Most probably want the whole thing to be on the low and the ROC ignored lest the dragon is awakened. But regardless what civilians want, being part of China affects the actions of Taipei more than any other issue.
    - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
      I am not sure even de jure the situation is clear. I think the following is the case (but I'm not a legal scholar, so please correct me if I'm wrong!) When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of what was called "Taiwan Province". The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) both did not specify that Taiwan was a part of mainland China. I think formally/legally Taiwan was Japanese until 1952 but Japan was under allied control at the time. The question of Taiwan's legal status was left open in the aforementioned peace treaties. This is the legal/technical root cause for the problems with Taiwan's legal status even today. So, as far as I can see: de facto Taiwan is an independent nation. And de jure it's ... unclear. Finally, let's bear in mind that in a very real sense there is no such thing as "international law", much of what is called international law is really just voluntary consent of states.
- YorkshireSeason 7y ago
  Taiwan only holds on to the historical claim to ruling China because a change in status is feared to trigger the China's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion on Taiwan by China. Better not to "rock the boat" at this point. (Taiwan probably also sees this as a bargaining chip, to be given up at an opportune moment (like the Kinmen Islands), in exchange for something else, e.g. China accepting Taiwan's independence. I suspect this would have been possible at some point when China was weak but seems unlikely now.)
Y_Y 7y ago
Well the Republic of China (a.k.a. Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (the big communist one) would both disagree with this (in principle). Of course in reality Taiwan is at this point a separate nation that some people go to great lengths to conspicuously ignore, but this isn't the "party line" on either side. The revolution in China is still within living memory and there's more than just Xi Jin-pingbots who don't see the status quo as valid, de jure.
dang 7y ago
This comment breaks two of the site guidelines: the one against commenting about voting on comments, and the one against insinuations of astroturfing. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not taking threads in those directions in the future? They lead to uninteresting places.

est31 7y ago

> Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Depends on the view. The central Chinese government certainly considers Taiwan to be its province, and achieved that Taiwan has no seat in the UN, and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country. Taiwan themselves maintain a claim to the entire mainland as well, they just disagree on who should hold power. There are also countries that recognize Taiwanese independence, as there are countries that recognize Taiwan's claim over of all of China.

dionian 7y ago
> and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country but that's a close as they ever got to having their flag fly on taiwan...
anaccountwow 7y ago
US Customs and Border Control seems to think it's a country ;) https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/eligibility https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-...
- taobility 7y ago
  US also think Tibet is an individual country, but who cares
  - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
    Tibetans!
    - taobility 7y ago
      yelling on Tibet's street, not here.
  - JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
    It’s a lot more than the US that think Tibet is a country.

caprese 7y ago

Being passionate about that fickle national identity doesn't solidify the claim more. It enjoys independence and autonomy, but the rest is so nuanced to instead be a complete mockery to the whole nation state concept. I don't think its worth debating. You can negotiate directly with Taiwan, and accept their rule of law to navigate business. Isn't that all you need to know? some people in Taiwan would be offended by saying "Taiwan, China" by assuming that you are saying it is a province of the PRC. other people in Taiwan would not care, while yet other people in Taiwan would appreciate that you recognized that Taiwan is the legitimate China and you just wrote the Taiwan part for descriptive purposes, ALL WHILE you are just trying to maintain consensus with the other people you work with which includes your own country and also the PRC, and then a random Taiwanese-American will call you "racist" for "mistakenly" thinking their heritage is from "China" instead of Taiwan, projecting their own exile as part of an amorphous underrepresented Asian-American diaspora amongst ignorant foreigners, and its like "no, buddy."