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You could wonder: why does the mighty bejing government care about these little provinces that dabble with democracy? Actually, Hong Kong and Taiwan are very da

by est31 8y ago

You could wonder: why does the mighty bejing government care about these little provinces that dabble with democracy? Actually, Hong Kong and Taiwan are very dangerous to the mainland government. They harbour elites who keep values of democracy and freedom. Those elites potentially could be put into power in order to oversee democratization of China. Not saying that they ever will, but it's certainly a danger for them.

YorkshireSeason 8y ago
Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Other than that, I agree with your assessment: Taiwan's thriving democracy undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party claim to power, in particular the CCP's narrative that democracy is neither needed nor wanted, nor desirable for the Chinese people.
- dforrestwilson 8y ago
  Who would possibly downvote this? Occam’s Razor.
  - sbzodnsbd 8y ago
    Well I don’t think they should be down voted, but it is wrong. Taiwan is de-jure a part of China. China just happens to be in the curious state of having two competing entities claiming to be the legitimate government. Both ROC and Beijing agree Taiwan is China. The “C” in ROC is China!
    - jacobolus 8y ago
      Taiwanese people I know don’t believe this, and my impression is that the Taiwanese government’s continuing claim over China is mostly a matter of historical inertia and symbolism rather than a serious practical goal. But many mainland Chinese do, and the government spends considerable effort cajoling/bullying the rest of the world to not recognize Taiwanese sovereignty. From what I can tell there is a real threat China might sometime attempt military conquest.
      - sbzodnsbd 8y ago
        Hence the “de jure” Anyway it’s complicated. Some in ROC want independence. Some don’t. Some would like to join Beijing (many investors from ROC). Most probably want the whole thing to be on the low and the ROC ignored lest the dragon is awakened. But regardless what civilians want, being part of China affects the actions of Taipei more than any other issue.
        YorkshireSeason 8y ago
        I am not sure even de jure the situation is clear. I think the following is the case (but I'm not a legal scholar, so please correct me if I'm wrong!) When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of what was called "Taiwan Province". The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) both did not specify that Taiwan was a part of mainland China. I think formally/legally Taiwan was Japanese until 1952 but Japan was under allied control at the time. The question of Taiwan's legal status was left open in the aforementioned peace treaties. This is the legal/technical root cause for the problems with Taiwan's legal status even today. So, as far as I can see: de facto Taiwan is an independent nation. And de jure it's ... unclear. Finally, let's bear in mind that in a very real sense there is no such thing as "international law", much of what is called international law is really just voluntary consent of states.
    - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
      Taiwan only holds on to the historical claim to ruling China because a change in status is feared to trigger the China's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion on Taiwan by China. Better not to "rock the boat" at this point. (Taiwan probably also sees this as a bargaining chip, to be given up at an opportune moment (like the Kinmen Islands), in exchange for something else, e.g. China accepting Taiwan's independence. I suspect this would have been possible at some point when China was weak but seems unlikely now.)
  - Y_Y 8y ago
    Well the Republic of China (a.k.a. Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (the big communist one) would both disagree with this (in principle). Of course in reality Taiwan is at this point a separate nation that some people go to great lengths to conspicuously ignore, but this isn't the "party line" on either side. The revolution in China is still within living memory and there's more than just Xi Jin-pingbots who don't see the status quo as valid, de jure.
  - dang 8y ago
    This comment breaks two of the site guidelines: the one against commenting about voting on comments, and the one against insinuations of astroturfing. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not taking threads in those directions in the future? They lead to uninteresting places.
- est31 8y ago
  > Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Depends on the view. The central Chinese government certainly considers Taiwan to be its province, and achieved that Taiwan has no seat in the UN, and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country. Taiwan themselves maintain a claim to the entire mainland as well, they just disagree on who should hold power. There are also countries that recognize Taiwanese independence, as there are countries that recognize Taiwan's claim over of all of China.
  - dionian 8y ago
    > and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country but that's a close as they ever got to having their flag fly on taiwan...
  - anaccountwow 8y ago
    US Customs and Border Control seems to think it's a country ;) https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/eligibility https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-...
    - taobility 8y ago
      US also think Tibet is an individual country, but who cares
      - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
        Tibetans!
        taobility 8y ago
        yelling on Tibet's street, not here.
      - JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
        It’s a lot more than the US that think Tibet is a country.
- caprese 8y ago
  Being passionate about that fickle national identity doesn't solidify the claim more. It enjoys independence and autonomy, but the rest is so nuanced to instead be a complete mockery to the whole nation state concept. I don't think its worth debating. You can negotiate directly with Taiwan, and accept their rule of law to navigate business. Isn't that all you need to know? some people in Taiwan would be offended by saying "Taiwan, China" by assuming that you are saying it is a province of the PRC. other people in Taiwan would not care, while yet other people in Taiwan would appreciate that you recognized that Taiwan is the legitimate China and you just wrote the Taiwan part for descriptive purposes, ALL WHILE you are just trying to maintain consensus with the other people you work with which includes your own country and also the PRC, and then a random Taiwanese-American will call you "racist" for "mistakenly" thinking their heritage is from "China" instead of Taiwan, projecting their own exile as part of an amorphous underrepresented Asian-American diaspora amongst ignorant foreigners, and its like "no, buddy."
devoply 8y ago
If you look at the history of China, many times entire governments have been overthrown by a peasant revolt. China is sort of unique in that, other than the French. So to the Chinese: Viva la revolution. Down with Communist Party! So to answer your question, that's why they are scared and should be the Chinese people have the ability to get rid of the fascist totalitarians running their country -- they have done so multiple times in the past.
- lixtra 8y ago
  Didn’t one of those revolutions kill 20 million people? So to the Chinese: stand firm to improve your lot but do it carefully.
  - devoply 8y ago
    WW2 killed 55 million people. What's your point? Yes there are costs to liberty and freedom.
    - lixtra 8y ago
      My point is that you should ignore advise from people that shrug of millions of dead. Of course you can finally come to the conclusion that the cause is worth the price. But considering the cost it should be carefully weighted.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        The original comment didn't shrug off anything. It didn't even mention the implied cost of overthrowing a government.
- usrnm 8y ago
  I hate being the devil's advocate, but you know the word "fascist" has an actual meaning, don't you? I'm not trying to defend the Chinese government, but calling them "fascist" is just wrong
salty_biscuits 8y ago
I didn't think Hong Kong was particularly democratic. Free market but doesn't it have system where the electorate votes for some seats and business interests vote for others?
- hadrien01 8y ago
  The city of London has the same voting system (sort of)
  - jackvalentine 8y ago
    Same with the City of Melbourne - I worked for a small company there and got to cast our two votes in the council elections.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  The fact that there‘s any independent political parties responding to citizen concerns is the destabilizing factor.
- FabHK 8y ago
  Yes, basically (35 seats for "geographical constituencies", ie districts, and 35 seats for "functional constituencies", ie industries and the like). The opposition used to get enough seats to hold the pro-Beijing camp in check somewhat (with veto power on constitutional reforms), but after the (entertaining, but ex post unfortunate) oath-taking controversy [1] in 2016, six members-elect were disqualified, after Beijing "interpreted" the Basic Law of Hong Kong to "clarify" it (as it is entitled to do under the Basic Law). Now the one-thirds minority to block constitutional changes is gone. EDIT to add: Still, it's much too democratic for China! [1] Among the antics: legislators held a "Hong Kong is not China" banner, mispronounced "People's Republic of China" as "people's re-fucking of Chee-na" (the latter a derogatory term), and spent about ten minutes reading the 80-word oath in extreme slow motion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_oath-taking_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9rDqvSP4AY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9rDqvSP4AY https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/03/11/pledging-allegiance-beijing-purged-entire-generation-political-talent-legislature/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/03/11/pledging-allegiance-be...
StreamBright 8y ago
Many places around the globe "democratization" carry a negative connotation because it usually arrives with aircraft carriers and involves several hundred thousand civilian deaths. Loathing few people in HK or Taiwan as a real danger to Beijing is like saying an ant can be real threat to an elephant. Not sure if you are just underestimating the Chinese leadership or overestimating some guys in HK.
zachguo 8y ago
One reason is that such freedom is prone to foreign interference. It's obvious if you look at local medias in TW and HK. Democracy is not a taboo in the mainland, at least in academia. The government has also done a few democratization experiments in small villages and cities, but results were unpromising. Democratization in China is inevitable since the economic miracle won't last forever, the hard part is to figure out how to make sure the process of democratization keeps the country unified and brings prosperity, I remember there are even a few foreign professors working on this issue in Peking or Tsinghua University.
- eric-hu 8y ago
  Why is democracy inevitable? It seems to me like power concentrating into the hands of a small minority is inevitable everywhere. I'd really like to believe otherwise, but I'm hard pressed to see long lasting examples where money and power do not act like gravity
  - zachguo 8y ago
    Check this out https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/chinese-democracy-isnt-inevitable/394325/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/ch...
    - eric-hu 8y ago
      I gave the article a read. I don't feel like the author made a case for "democratization in China is inevitable". It was indeed an example of the Tsinghua democracy discussions you mentioned. Democracy isn't the only form of governance that can work, and it's _definitely_ not a silver bullet. I just don't see the majority of China's citizens clamoring for democracy so much that they'll revolt. My main point of contention with your original comment is that democracy is inevitable. I'd like for you to be right, but I'm just not seeing it. (I'd also like for the American system to be more effective for all than it is, but I won't betting on that...)
      - 8y ago
basetop 8y ago
Hong kong was never "democratic". Britain ruled hong kong for about 150 years and never allowed democracy or elections until China forced them to return hong kong. Oddly enough, Hong Kong became a "democracy" under Chinese Communist rule. Taiwan wasn't a democracy until fairly recently. Ironically enough, the first elections in taiwan was created by the japanese when they conquered taiwan. When the nationalist chinese took over taiwan, they banned elections. It was only within the past few decades that "democracy" flourished in taiwan. I suspect the only problem China has with the elites in hong kong and particularly taiwan are the pro-western elites. After all, Taiwan is a "client state" of the US and many of the nationalists and their descendents who rule taiwan are backed by the US. Look at how much hysteria and suspicion there is about Trump's unproven collusion with Russia. The nationalists and their descendents in taiwan actually colluded with the west. If china was really worried about "democracy" in Hong Kong, they would have simply not allowed it in the first place. And the idea that the elites of hong kong or taiwan care about democracy is simply not true. They, like all elites around the world, care about wealth and power.

by est31 8y ago

YorkshireSeason 8y ago

Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Other than that, I agree with your assessment: Taiwan's thriving democracy undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party claim to power, in particular the CCP's narrative that democracy is neither needed nor wanted, nor desirable for the Chinese people.

dforrestwilson 8y ago
Who would possibly downvote this? Occam’s Razor.
- sbzodnsbd 8y ago
  Well I don’t think they should be down voted, but it is wrong. Taiwan is de-jure a part of China. China just happens to be in the curious state of having two competing entities claiming to be the legitimate government. Both ROC and Beijing agree Taiwan is China. The “C” in ROC is China!
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    Taiwanese people I know don’t believe this, and my impression is that the Taiwanese government’s continuing claim over China is mostly a matter of historical inertia and symbolism rather than a serious practical goal. But many mainland Chinese do, and the government spends considerable effort cajoling/bullying the rest of the world to not recognize Taiwanese sovereignty. From what I can tell there is a real threat China might sometime attempt military conquest.
    - sbzodnsbd 8y ago
      Hence the “de jure” Anyway it’s complicated. Some in ROC want independence. Some don’t. Some would like to join Beijing (many investors from ROC). Most probably want the whole thing to be on the low and the ROC ignored lest the dragon is awakened. But regardless what civilians want, being part of China affects the actions of Taipei more than any other issue.
      - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
        I am not sure even de jure the situation is clear. I think the following is the case (but I'm not a legal scholar, so please correct me if I'm wrong!) When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of what was called "Taiwan Province". The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) both did not specify that Taiwan was a part of mainland China. I think formally/legally Taiwan was Japanese until 1952 but Japan was under allied control at the time. The question of Taiwan's legal status was left open in the aforementioned peace treaties. This is the legal/technical root cause for the problems with Taiwan's legal status even today. So, as far as I can see: de facto Taiwan is an independent nation. And de jure it's ... unclear. Finally, let's bear in mind that in a very real sense there is no such thing as "international law", much of what is called international law is really just voluntary consent of states.
  - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
    Taiwan only holds on to the historical claim to ruling China because a change in status is feared to trigger the China's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion on Taiwan by China. Better not to "rock the boat" at this point. (Taiwan probably also sees this as a bargaining chip, to be given up at an opportune moment (like the Kinmen Islands), in exchange for something else, e.g. China accepting Taiwan's independence. I suspect this would have been possible at some point when China was weak but seems unlikely now.)
- Y_Y 8y ago
  Well the Republic of China (a.k.a. Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (the big communist one) would both disagree with this (in principle). Of course in reality Taiwan is at this point a separate nation that some people go to great lengths to conspicuously ignore, but this isn't the "party line" on either side. The revolution in China is still within living memory and there's more than just Xi Jin-pingbots who don't see the status quo as valid, de jure.
- dang 8y ago
  This comment breaks two of the site guidelines: the one against commenting about voting on comments, and the one against insinuations of astroturfing. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not taking threads in those directions in the future? They lead to uninteresting places.
est31 8y ago
> Taiwan is not a province of China, but an independent country. Depends on the view. The central Chinese government certainly considers Taiwan to be its province, and achieved that Taiwan has no seat in the UN, and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country. Taiwan themselves maintain a claim to the entire mainland as well, they just disagree on who should hold power. There are also countries that recognize Taiwanese independence, as there are countries that recognize Taiwan's claim over of all of China.
- dionian 8y ago
  > and sanctions Hotel chains that treat Taiwan as separate country but that's a close as they ever got to having their flag fly on taiwan...
- anaccountwow 8y ago
  US Customs and Border Control seems to think it's a country ;) https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry/eligibility https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-...
  - taobility 8y ago
    US also think Tibet is an individual country, but who cares
    - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
      Tibetans!
      - taobility 8y ago
        yelling on Tibet's street, not here.
    - JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
      It’s a lot more than the US that think Tibet is a country.
caprese 8y ago
Being passionate about that fickle national identity doesn't solidify the claim more. It enjoys independence and autonomy, but the rest is so nuanced to instead be a complete mockery to the whole nation state concept. I don't think its worth debating. You can negotiate directly with Taiwan, and accept their rule of law to navigate business. Isn't that all you need to know? some people in Taiwan would be offended by saying "Taiwan, China" by assuming that you are saying it is a province of the PRC. other people in Taiwan would not care, while yet other people in Taiwan would appreciate that you recognized that Taiwan is the legitimate China and you just wrote the Taiwan part for descriptive purposes, ALL WHILE you are just trying to maintain consensus with the other people you work with which includes your own country and also the PRC, and then a random Taiwanese-American will call you "racist" for "mistakenly" thinking their heritage is from "China" instead of Taiwan, projecting their own exile as part of an amorphous underrepresented Asian-American diaspora amongst ignorant foreigners, and its like "no, buddy."

devoply 8y ago

If you look at the history of China, many times entire governments have been overthrown by a peasant revolt. China is sort of unique in that, other than the French. So to the Chinese: Viva la revolution. Down with Communist Party! So to answer your question, that's why they are scared and should be the Chinese people have the ability to get rid of the fascist totalitarians running their country -- they have done so multiple times in the past.

lixtra 8y ago
Didn’t one of those revolutions kill 20 million people? So to the Chinese: stand firm to improve your lot but do it carefully.
- devoply 8y ago
  WW2 killed 55 million people. What's your point? Yes there are costs to liberty and freedom.
  - lixtra 8y ago
    My point is that you should ignore advise from people that shrug of millions of dead. Of course you can finally come to the conclusion that the cause is worth the price. But considering the cost it should be carefully weighted.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      The original comment didn't shrug off anything. It didn't even mention the implied cost of overthrowing a government.
usrnm 8y ago
I hate being the devil's advocate, but you know the word "fascist" has an actual meaning, don't you? I'm not trying to defend the Chinese government, but calling them "fascist" is just wrong

salty_biscuits 8y ago

I didn't think Hong Kong was particularly democratic. Free market but doesn't it have system where the electorate votes for some seats and business interests vote for others?

hadrien01 8y ago
The city of London has the same voting system (sort of)
- jackvalentine 8y ago
  Same with the City of Melbourne - I worked for a small company there and got to cast our two votes in the council elections.
bobthepanda 8y ago
The fact that there‘s any independent political parties responding to citizen concerns is the destabilizing factor.
FabHK 8y ago
Yes, basically (35 seats for "geographical constituencies", ie districts, and 35 seats for "functional constituencies", ie industries and the like). The opposition used to get enough seats to hold the pro-Beijing camp in check somewhat (with veto power on constitutional reforms), but after the (entertaining, but ex post unfortunate) oath-taking controversy [1] in 2016, six members-elect were disqualified, after Beijing "interpreted" the Basic Law of Hong Kong to "clarify" it (as it is entitled to do under the Basic Law). Now the one-thirds minority to block constitutional changes is gone. EDIT to add: Still, it's much too democratic for China! [1] Among the antics: legislators held a "Hong Kong is not China" banner, mispronounced "People's Republic of China" as "people's re-fucking of Chee-na" (the latter a derogatory term), and spent about ten minutes reading the 80-word oath in extreme slow motion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_oath-taking_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9rDqvSP4AY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9rDqvSP4AY https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/03/11/pledging-allegiance-beijing-purged-entire-generation-political-talent-legislature/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/03/11/pledging-allegiance-be...

StreamBright 8y ago

Many places around the globe "democratization" carry a negative connotation because it usually arrives with aircraft carriers and involves several hundred thousand civilian deaths. Loathing few people in HK or Taiwan as a real danger to Beijing is like saying an ant can be real threat to an elephant. Not sure if you are just underestimating the Chinese leadership or overestimating some guys in HK.

zachguo 8y ago

One reason is that such freedom is prone to foreign interference. It's obvious if you look at local medias in TW and HK. Democracy is not a taboo in the mainland, at least in academia. The government has also done a few democratization experiments in small villages and cities, but results were unpromising. Democratization in China is inevitable since the economic miracle won't last forever, the hard part is to figure out how to make sure the process of democratization keeps the country unified and brings prosperity, I remember there are even a few foreign professors working on this issue in Peking or Tsinghua University.

eric-hu 8y ago
Why is democracy inevitable? It seems to me like power concentrating into the hands of a small minority is inevitable everywhere. I'd really like to believe otherwise, but I'm hard pressed to see long lasting examples where money and power do not act like gravity
- zachguo 8y ago
  Check this out https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/chinese-democracy-isnt-inevitable/394325/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/05/ch...
  - eric-hu 8y ago
    I gave the article a read. I don't feel like the author made a case for "democratization in China is inevitable". It was indeed an example of the Tsinghua democracy discussions you mentioned. Democracy isn't the only form of governance that can work, and it's _definitely_ not a silver bullet. I just don't see the majority of China's citizens clamoring for democracy so much that they'll revolt. My main point of contention with your original comment is that democracy is inevitable. I'd like for you to be right, but I'm just not seeing it. (I'd also like for the American system to be more effective for all than it is, but I won't betting on that...)
    - 8y ago

basetop 8y ago

Hong kong was never "democratic". Britain ruled hong kong for about 150 years and never allowed democracy or elections until China forced them to return hong kong. Oddly enough, Hong Kong became a "democracy" under Chinese Communist rule. Taiwan wasn't a democracy until fairly recently. Ironically enough, the first elections in taiwan was created by the japanese when they conquered taiwan. When the nationalist chinese took over taiwan, they banned elections. It was only within the past few decades that "democracy" flourished in taiwan. I suspect the only problem China has with the elites in hong kong and particularly taiwan are the pro-western elites. After all, Taiwan is a "client state" of the US and many of the nationalists and their descendents who rule taiwan are backed by the US. Look at how much hysteria and suspicion there is about Trump's unproven collusion with Russia. The nationalists and their descendents in taiwan actually colluded with the west. If china was really worried about "democracy" in Hong Kong, they would have simply not allowed it in the first place. And the idea that the elites of hong kong or taiwan care about democracy is simply not true. They, like all elites around the world, care about wealth and power.