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> I see no reason why humanity must crowd trample each other in tiny metropolitan areas when there are so many affordable -- and likely more beautiful -- places

> I see no reason why humanity must crowd trample each other in tiny metropolitan areas when there are so many affordable -- and likely more beautiful -- places to live in. This is an incredibly disingenuous argument. You use "must" as if the opposing side is the one forcing people to live a certain way, but it's actually your side that pushes for strong regulations limiting population density even when people do want to live in a big city. Nobody's suggesting banning living in rural areas or small towns. But regulations as they currently exist work to push people from living in big metros where the good jobs are. That's not the market, that's incumbents using government power to dictate lifestyles for their neighbors and potential immigrants.

pdimitar 8y ago
Well to be fair, I have no "side" in this. I am saying that there are a lot of incentives for people to crowd in metropolitan areas. As a resident of a country that only has one big city -- the capital -- I see this all the time: people just have no future elsewhere and come here even though they sacrifice quite a lot and the overall gain might not outpace all the negatives. Not sure what's the way out, to be honest.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  I mean, there's a reason the good jobs tend to come out of those big metro areas: bigger populations make for stronger ecosystem/network effects. If you push policies deflecting people elsewhere, you're not just spreading out the prosperity, you're also reducing it in total. And I don't think big cities have to be bad to live in. Vienna gets extremely high livability marks despite being the one big city Austria has. I currently live in Munich, and though our yard here is very small compared to the US standard, having a couple of parks within a block and a half (+ other nearby green space) makes up for it, even with a kid.
  - pdimitar 8y ago
    Big cities don't have to be bad to live in... but they often are. Sofia isn't anything special but it has quite beautiful neighborhoods which are of course quite expensive to live in. Back yard? You only have that if you live in villages with like 2000 people. Our capital is so crowded that the real estate agents feel really proud to advertise 68m2 apartments with two small rooms and a tiny kitchen, it's that bad. Good views? Forget about it. (I am considering moving out of Bulgaria to Vienna/Austria exactly by the way; but I'm for the moment too scared to do it.)
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      > Back yard? You only have that if you live in villages with like 2000 people. Having your own backyard is definitely a luxury in Munich, we have one because we're kind of at the outskirts and Google pays well (and as I said, it's quite small), but it's very common here at least for regular people to live in small apartment buildings (like 8-12 units) with a decent sized shared backyard. Especially if they're in a suburb of Munich, which still lets them access the job market there of course.
shados 8y ago
> that's incumbents using government power to dictate lifestyles for their neighbors and potential immigrants As opposed to? People trying to force a change to the lifestyle of people already there in favor of their neighbors and potential newcomer? I mean, if you build a skyscrapper across the street, it will change people's lifestyle quite a bit...

pdimitar 8y ago

Well to be fair, I have no "side" in this. I am saying that there are a lot of incentives for people to crowd in metropolitan areas. As a resident of a country that only has one big city -- the capital -- I see this all the time: people just have no future elsewhere and come here even though they sacrifice quite a lot and the overall gain might not outpace all the negatives. Not sure what's the way out, to be honest.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
I mean, there's a reason the good jobs tend to come out of those big metro areas: bigger populations make for stronger ecosystem/network effects. If you push policies deflecting people elsewhere, you're not just spreading out the prosperity, you're also reducing it in total. And I don't think big cities have to be bad to live in. Vienna gets extremely high livability marks despite being the one big city Austria has. I currently live in Munich, and though our yard here is very small compared to the US standard, having a couple of parks within a block and a half (+ other nearby green space) makes up for it, even with a kid.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  Big cities don't have to be bad to live in... but they often are. Sofia isn't anything special but it has quite beautiful neighborhoods which are of course quite expensive to live in. Back yard? You only have that if you live in villages with like 2000 people. Our capital is so crowded that the real estate agents feel really proud to advertise 68m2 apartments with two small rooms and a tiny kitchen, it's that bad. Good views? Forget about it. (I am considering moving out of Bulgaria to Vienna/Austria exactly by the way; but I'm for the moment too scared to do it.)
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    > Back yard? You only have that if you live in villages with like 2000 people. Having your own backyard is definitely a luxury in Munich, we have one because we're kind of at the outskirts and Google pays well (and as I said, it's quite small), but it's very common here at least for regular people to live in small apartment buildings (like 8-12 units) with a decent sized shared backyard. Especially if they're in a suburb of Munich, which still lets them access the job market there of course.

shados 8y ago

> that's incumbents using government power to dictate lifestyles for their neighbors and potential immigrants As opposed to? People trying to force a change to the lifestyle of people already there in favor of their neighbors and potential newcomer? I mean, if you build a skyscrapper across the street, it will change people's lifestyle quite a bit...