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Meh, I know of at least 3 ex-friends that came across enough content on Reddit to “push them over the edge.” I.e. they literally “credited” Reddit for their “en

by Operyl 7y ago

Meh, I know of at least 3 ex-friends that came across enough content on Reddit to “push them over the edge.” I.e. they literally “credited” Reddit for their “enlightenment.”

slothtrop 7y ago
That's not the kind of content you just stumble upon. If they sought that out they'd just as well have sought out other forums, so I find it moot that they happen to find racist content they found agreeable on reddit that further radicalized them. It's like the incels, they're just looking for a circle jerk. The reason I feels strongly about it is open discussion with racists have led to conversion away from white supremacy that would not have otherwise occurred e.g. Davis - https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc... The fear of power of racists operating on a platform like reddit is overblown by virtue that racists seem stronger without it; strongest with echo chambers.
- Operyl 7y ago
  It very much is. All it can take is a single comment by someone on a popular sub to have someone click their profile to read more, stumbling upon more of the same affirming content.
  - slothtrop 7y ago
    In that instance the content is being deliberately sought out. What's to prevent them from searching online for more reclusive forums like stormfront? Absolutely nothing. EDIT: since I can't reply to you, yes, by definition, it's seeking it out.
    - Operyl 7y ago
      Seeing a supremest message in a comment, and clicking their name, is seeking it out? Jesus then, we’re screwed.
- plorkyeran 7y ago
  It is very, very easy to just stumble upon stormfrontesque content on reddit. Reddit tries to keep it off the default frontpage and /r/all these days but they're not entirely successful, and it's not unheard of for the comments on a picture of a cute bunny to turn into a conversation about how people of some race are responsible for all of the problems in the world.
  - slothtrop 7y ago
    Seeing a conversation go south into that territory is a far cry from stumbling upon a full-fledged white supremacist sub. I've seen plenty racists on reddit, they're still around post-censorship.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  Which is more likely, that you'll be able to convince a true believer to convert, or that a true believer well be able to convince someone on the fence? Putting racists on open platforms stops the second, and if you're so interested in changing their minds, nothing is stopping you from searching them out to do so. Daryl Davis went I to people's homes and met them in person to befriend and sometimes "convert" them. It wasn't accidental cross pollination. He explicitly reached out.
  - slothtrop 7y ago
    Why would the opposite necessarily be "on the fence"? This is both a false dichotomy and false analogy. The vast majority of users aren't "on the fence", meaning the more likely person on the other end of the argument is avidly anti-racist. What if said "on-the-fence" individual visits stormfront? Who's to argue against it there? No one. > nothing is stopping you from searching them out to do so. Except there is. Racist forums are walled gardens. They're safe-spaces for white supremacists. They don't invite dissent. > Daryl Davis went I to people's homes and met them in person to befriend and sometimes "convert" them. It wasn't accidental cross pollination. He explicitly reached out. In person, correct. If this is to be analogous to the real world, other users on a popular social media platform like reddit are your neighbors. And obscure radical forums are like impenetrable cult compounds. You can reach them out online, when in plain view, but this isn't as easily accomplished in every medium. More importantly, you're framing racism as an infectious view that could plague just about any innocent bystander. It's more fragile than that, in terms of logical merit (there is none). I think the exposure makes it more vulnerable.
    - joshuamorton 7y ago
      > Except there is. Racist forums are walled gardens. They're safe-spaces for white supremacists. They don't invite dissent. This applies equally to a subreddit. Except now the walled garden has a funnel, since people can accidentally get exposed, but can't see any dissent. > It's more fragile than that, in terms of logical merit (there is none). I think the exposure makes it more vulnerable. You're assuming racists will play fair. That's naive. To frame this a different way, I assume that racists will act in their own self interest. If Reddit wasn't useful to them, they wouldn't use it. But here they are (were). Clearly they think it ads value. They've put a lot more time and energy into analyzing their best path forward, and it apparently involved Reddit. Why should we freely give them that ammo. > What if said "on-the-fence" individual visits stormfront? Who's to argue against it there? No one. But getting to stormfront is much, much harder than getting to /r/ conspiracy (which has almost a million subs), hanging out for a while, and seeing someone go off about gassing the Jews or the censorship of data on human skull size comparisons, clicking on their profile, and seeing that they also post to /r/sig_heilo_there or greatapes or whatever it is. And that person was already subscribed to conspiracy, so the ideas that the man is keeping the truth about Jews/affirmative action/the imminent subjugation of white people. It is infectious, despite your disbelief. And then as you are more radicalized, you get invited to a private discord, or to hang out with the cooler people on stormfront. So now this person who, on their own would never have ventured onto stormfront (because who does that) is a member. Radicalization is a process. And if you ever run in to try and stop it, you'll be banned, because they control the subreddit. Let me rephrase what you're advocating for: allowing white supremacists to freely propagandize will make it easier to prevent the spread of white supremacy. Do you believe that to be true in general (say for extremist religions, or even for nonextremism?)

by Operyl 7y ago

Meh, I know of at least 3 ex-friends that came across enough content on Reddit to “push them over the edge.” I.e. they literally “credited” Reddit for their “enlightenment.”

slothtrop 7y ago

That's not the kind of content you just stumble upon. If they sought that out they'd just as well have sought out other forums, so I find it moot that they happen to find racist content they found agreeable on reddit that further radicalized them. It's like the incels, they're just looking for a circle jerk. The reason I feels strongly about it is open discussion with racists have led to conversion away from white supremacy that would not have otherwise occurred e.g. Davis - https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc... The fear of power of racists operating on a platform like reddit is overblown by virtue that racists seem stronger without it; strongest with echo chambers.

Operyl 7y ago
It very much is. All it can take is a single comment by someone on a popular sub to have someone click their profile to read more, stumbling upon more of the same affirming content.
- slothtrop 7y ago
  In that instance the content is being deliberately sought out. What's to prevent them from searching online for more reclusive forums like stormfront? Absolutely nothing. EDIT: since I can't reply to you, yes, by definition, it's seeking it out.
  - Operyl 7y ago
    Seeing a supremest message in a comment, and clicking their name, is seeking it out? Jesus then, we’re screwed.
plorkyeran 7y ago
It is very, very easy to just stumble upon stormfrontesque content on reddit. Reddit tries to keep it off the default frontpage and /r/all these days but they're not entirely successful, and it's not unheard of for the comments on a picture of a cute bunny to turn into a conversation about how people of some race are responsible for all of the problems in the world.
- slothtrop 7y ago
  Seeing a conversation go south into that territory is a far cry from stumbling upon a full-fledged white supremacist sub. I've seen plenty racists on reddit, they're still around post-censorship.
joshuamorton 7y ago
Which is more likely, that you'll be able to convince a true believer to convert, or that a true believer well be able to convince someone on the fence? Putting racists on open platforms stops the second, and if you're so interested in changing their minds, nothing is stopping you from searching them out to do so. Daryl Davis went I to people's homes and met them in person to befriend and sometimes "convert" them. It wasn't accidental cross pollination. He explicitly reached out.
- slothtrop 7y ago
  Why would the opposite necessarily be "on the fence"? This is both a false dichotomy and false analogy. The vast majority of users aren't "on the fence", meaning the more likely person on the other end of the argument is avidly anti-racist. What if said "on-the-fence" individual visits stormfront? Who's to argue against it there? No one. > nothing is stopping you from searching them out to do so. Except there is. Racist forums are walled gardens. They're safe-spaces for white supremacists. They don't invite dissent. > Daryl Davis went I to people's homes and met them in person to befriend and sometimes "convert" them. It wasn't accidental cross pollination. He explicitly reached out. In person, correct. If this is to be analogous to the real world, other users on a popular social media platform like reddit are your neighbors. And obscure radical forums are like impenetrable cult compounds. You can reach them out online, when in plain view, but this isn't as easily accomplished in every medium. More importantly, you're framing racism as an infectious view that could plague just about any innocent bystander. It's more fragile than that, in terms of logical merit (there is none). I think the exposure makes it more vulnerable.
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    > Except there is. Racist forums are walled gardens. They're safe-spaces for white supremacists. They don't invite dissent. This applies equally to a subreddit. Except now the walled garden has a funnel, since people can accidentally get exposed, but can't see any dissent. > It's more fragile than that, in terms of logical merit (there is none). I think the exposure makes it more vulnerable. You're assuming racists will play fair. That's naive. To frame this a different way, I assume that racists will act in their own self interest. If Reddit wasn't useful to them, they wouldn't use it. But here they are (were). Clearly they think it ads value. They've put a lot more time and energy into analyzing their best path forward, and it apparently involved Reddit. Why should we freely give them that ammo. > What if said "on-the-fence" individual visits stormfront? Who's to argue against it there? No one. But getting to stormfront is much, much harder than getting to /r/ conspiracy (which has almost a million subs), hanging out for a while, and seeing someone go off about gassing the Jews or the censorship of data on human skull size comparisons, clicking on their profile, and seeing that they also post to /r/sig_heilo_there or greatapes or whatever it is. And that person was already subscribed to conspiracy, so the ideas that the man is keeping the truth about Jews/affirmative action/the imminent subjugation of white people. It is infectious, despite your disbelief. And then as you are more radicalized, you get invited to a private discord, or to hang out with the cooler people on stormfront. So now this person who, on their own would never have ventured onto stormfront (because who does that) is a member. Radicalization is a process. And if you ever run in to try and stop it, you'll be banned, because they control the subreddit. Let me rephrase what you're advocating for: allowing white supremacists to freely propagandize will make it easier to prevent the spread of white supremacy. Do you believe that to be true in general (say for extremist religions, or even for nonextremism?)