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> The N word is of course much more extreme given America's ugly, unresolved history around race, but it's the same rough deal. I think this is quite dubious.

> The N word is of course much more extreme given America's ugly, unresolved history around race, but it's the same rough deal. I think this is quite dubious. "Nerd" and "geek" or even "freak" were never pejoratives in the way that the other word was. You could sympathetically say of someone, even as an outsider "He's a bit of a nerd/geek". But it would make no sense for one who was sympathetic to say something like "he's a bit of a "-- well, you get the idea. (This is also why I don't even claim or pretend that I'll ever understand this whole "reclamation" deal. I do accept that free speech is a thing and that a social ingroup can do whatever they want amongst themselves, but I still find it somewhat in poor taste, and counterproductive to its goal.)

intertextuality 7y ago
Nerd, geek, and freak are nowhere near as utterly vile as the n word. They are in completely different leagues. The first step to understanding the reclamation is understanding just how offensive the n word was and is today. And the culture that surrounded it. For non-Americans this topic is a difficult issue to get into because it involves unpacking and understanding so much history and culture.
- 0815test 7y ago
  > Nerd, geek, and freak are nowhere near as utterly vile as the n word. They are in completely different leagues. Yes, which supports what I said, contra what GP said. You can't just take such a vile word with such vile connotations attached and "rework" it harmlessly like you could with "geek"-- that's just not how human psychology works, and an IAT or such would easily bear this out. You'd have to wait for the whole semantic field of the original word to become basically forgotten, then you could freely reclaim it. (There is such a thing as dysphemism shift, but it tends to happen randomly or to be driven by language-internal forces. "Yankee" used to be a (mildly) derogatory term, but it became popular and neutral because there was no sympathetic term for "a U.S. person" in the lexicon - so "Yankee" moved into that space. But even this is a rare phenomenon; you can't just "make this happen".)
  - learc83 7y ago
    Nerd and Geek weren't reworked harmlessly overnight. There was a very gradual change in connotation over the years. It took 50 years for nerd to move from completely unsympathetic epithet to being "reclaimed". 40 years ago a sympathetic person would never have said "he's a bit of a nerd". Nerd started to be "reclaimed" in the 80s and 90s, and there was a time period were it was still used pejoratively by non-nerds while being used positively by nerds. "Yankee" by the way still has very strong negative connotations in the south particularly among older people. It's a very good example of a word that is still used by outsiders derogatorily, but insiders don't find it offensive at all.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    > You can't just take such a vile word with such vile connotations attached and "rework" it harmlessly like you could with "geek"-- that's just not how human psychology works, and an IAT or such would easily bear this out. Your belief that you know way better than marginalized people what their experience is and what is good for them? That has a name.
wpietri 7y ago
> "Nerd" and "geek" or even "freak" were never pejoratives in the way that the other word was. No, it was the same way, not just the same degree. E.g., a geek was originally the sideshow circus freak who bit heads of chickens and ate live insects. That comparison was not favorable, especially in the 50s and 60s, when conformity was strongly enforced. I'm guessing you are young enough that you have only experienced the rise of tech. For some flavor of the early days, try Levy's "Hackers": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003PDMKIY https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003PDMKIY

intertextuality 7y ago

Nerd, geek, and freak are nowhere near as utterly vile as the n word. They are in completely different leagues. The first step to understanding the reclamation is understanding just how offensive the n word was and is today. And the culture that surrounded it. For non-Americans this topic is a difficult issue to get into because it involves unpacking and understanding so much history and culture.

0815test 7y ago
> Nerd, geek, and freak are nowhere near as utterly vile as the n word. They are in completely different leagues. Yes, which supports what I said, contra what GP said. You can't just take such a vile word with such vile connotations attached and "rework" it harmlessly like you could with "geek"-- that's just not how human psychology works, and an IAT or such would easily bear this out. You'd have to wait for the whole semantic field of the original word to become basically forgotten, then you could freely reclaim it. (There is such a thing as dysphemism shift, but it tends to happen randomly or to be driven by language-internal forces. "Yankee" used to be a (mildly) derogatory term, but it became popular and neutral because there was no sympathetic term for "a U.S. person" in the lexicon - so "Yankee" moved into that space. But even this is a rare phenomenon; you can't just "make this happen".)
- learc83 7y ago
  Nerd and Geek weren't reworked harmlessly overnight. There was a very gradual change in connotation over the years. It took 50 years for nerd to move from completely unsympathetic epithet to being "reclaimed". 40 years ago a sympathetic person would never have said "he's a bit of a nerd". Nerd started to be "reclaimed" in the 80s and 90s, and there was a time period were it was still used pejoratively by non-nerds while being used positively by nerds. "Yankee" by the way still has very strong negative connotations in the south particularly among older people. It's a very good example of a word that is still used by outsiders derogatorily, but insiders don't find it offensive at all.
- wpietri 7y ago
  > You can't just take such a vile word with such vile connotations attached and "rework" it harmlessly like you could with "geek"-- that's just not how human psychology works, and an IAT or such would easily bear this out. Your belief that you know way better than marginalized people what their experience is and what is good for them? That has a name.

wpietri 7y ago

> "Nerd" and "geek" or even "freak" were never pejoratives in the way that the other word was. No, it was the same way, not just the same degree. E.g., a geek was originally the sideshow circus freak who bit heads of chickens and ate live insects. That comparison was not favorable, especially in the 50s and 60s, when conformity was strongly enforced. I'm guessing you are young enough that you have only experienced the rise of tech. For some flavor of the early days, try Levy's "Hackers": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003PDMKIY https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003PDMKIY