5 ms·

Running Out of Children, a South Korea School Enrolls Illiterate Grandmothers

89 points by danso 8y ago

kwhitefoot 8y ago
The general idea of using the school to do more than teach children is something that I have wondered about since I was a child (I'm 63). It seems such a shame for all those facilities to stand idle all summer, all weekend, all night. As the article shows there are people who need the basic education that a primary school can give but surely we should go further still and offer everyone in society the chance to go 'back' to school and learn whatever they want. Perhaps to learn some of the things that they thought were dull or inappropriate when they were there the first time around. Men could learn to cook and sew, women could learn to maintain their car or bicycle, Lots of people could benefit from a better grasp of simple mathematics and statistics. Yes, I know that evening classes and further education exist but they are far from universally available and except for classes in demand for craft training (mechanics, electricians, etc.) depend all too much on volunteer effort by teachers or even untrained enthusiats who are already overworked orunderqualified. And lastly, why am I the only one commenting here? Surely life long education should be dear to the heart of all HNers? And worth a comment or two.
- automatoney 8y ago
  I've never really thought much about using schools to teach adults. I love the idea, although in the United States there'd likely be a lot of pushback from people who oppose more subsidized college. But aside from all of that, I think that the expansion of services that libraries provide would be an excellent way to go about this - many libraries are already getting 3D printers and all sorts of tools, and are consistently adding new programs. And I doubt many people oppose supporting local libraries. Plus, libraries are in some ways better equipped to train people on how to learn on their own (not that they shouldn't also have teachers, but self teaching is definitely a great skill for life long education) Also, the idea of having many ages all together is really nice - something that doesn't even happen much in colleges. It's the sort of thing that helps foster community across generations and helps give people an understanding of more perspectives. Although luckily that kind of interaction can happen a lot across the internet.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    > And I doubt many people oppose supporting local libraries. Previous threads on HN (and many other fora) about local libraries in the US, bring out a lot of people who complain about local libraries. They say that libraries smell bad because homeless people sit there all day (and supposedly view pornography on the provided computers, and use drugs in the bathroom). They say that libraries are a waste of taxpayer money now that we have the internet and they should be shut down. I cannot claim to have visited every community in the USA, but it seems to me that a lot of people oppose supporting local libraries.
    - automatoney 8y ago
      I had forgotten about the people who complain about homeless people (which as an aside I would argue is more of an issue with society than with libraries themselves), but I haven't seen too much of the "we have the internet and they should be shut down" arguments. It seems that those opposed to libraries on this site have likely forgotten the Hacker part of Hacker News. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
    - zdragnar 8y ago
      From my observations, it seems that the vocal opposition is far outnumbered by the quiet supporters. My small town library is expanding, not simply for more room for books, but also to make it a nicer space for events and programs open to the community. The internet situation out here is also pretty bad (I use ubifi), so it's handy for those who are low income to access the internet without using data from their cell phone.
    - tooltalk 8y ago
      I used to work for NYPL years back. Apparently there are also gangs having sex (eg, gang initiation) at some branches -- this topic was actually covered during my orientation. I agree many branches are essentially day-time shelters for homeless (sure, they smell really bad) and drug addicts. Not sure about "shutting them down," but they try to justify their existence even in the age of the internet and wireless communication by claiming that they serve various unheeded needs of local community other agencies are unable to provide. Are they really a waste of taxpayers money? Well, most librarians are unions members and they are not for the most part a drain on NYC finance -- we are talking about NYC where NYPD officers can make $150+K or sky-is-the-limit earnings for MTA contractors. I think the city has much greater issues at its hand, but the library system is far from frugal or efficient, IMO. Some work for the library because they share and believe in the mission and service they provide to community, but I suspect many don't care about that.
- njepa 8y ago
  I think it is mostly a funding issue. In Sweden there is municipal adult education. About 4% of the population ages 20 to 64 attended last year, with the median age (at least previously) being around 30. It is however tuition free and grants you a government student loan for living costs. Of course soon enough that loan might not actually cover rent.
- 1e-9 8y ago
  With the rapid pace of technological advancement, I think adult education will become increasingly important as labor needs evolve, although online courses are probably a better route for adults. Seems like there would be significant logistical and security issues associated with using facilities currently configured for small children (for example, furniture size, possible overlap of adult/child presence).
- Entalpi 8y ago
  Atleast here in Sweden (Stockholm, big city) schools are usually used on evenings (languages courses for adults, such things) and on weekends.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  Fwiw there's numerous public schools in my city that run free programs at night and in the summer for "continuing education."
- bane 8y ago
  Maybe I live in a strange area, but we've always had continuing education offered by the county and various other local government type organizations. They offer everything from languang and reading instruction to welding, pottery, fitness and woodwork at very reasonable prices. We get two or three catalogs in the mail a few weeks before every scheduled session starts. My wife and I are currently taking the second session of an art program and take regular fitness classes every week. The local library also offers a large number of classes in various subjects for various ages. Classes use a mix of facilities, but I've spent quite a few evenings crammed into an elementary school desk. I've moved around a bit in my state and have always had this kind of offering available, even in quite rural areas. Is this not the norm?
- basetop 8y ago
  If there was demand for the services ( cooking, bike maintenance, simple math ), I'm sure schools would offer them. The point is who is going to pay to keep these schools open and pay the salaries of the teachers if people aren't willing to pay for these services? Besides, with the internet, learning to cook, maintain bike or even basic math is available to most people. It's how I learned to cook. And finally, the Hacker ethos is fairly anti-"schooling". Most hackers view school as indoctrination centers rather than centers of education. The idea of a "hacker" is being a curious free-thinker who tinkers and tries to learn things on their own. Maybe we should give everyone access to the internet so that they can seek the knowledge they want?
- nkrisc 8y ago
  Honestly if I could go back and take highschool trigonometry classes again I would. I learned enough that I can use a trig calculator to find what I need, but I'd love to go back and really learn the principles and the why. I had no interest in it back then, it just took me an extra decade and a half to get interested. I suppose some community colleges might have something like that. I know there are some that offer language classes on 10 week cycles with no other enrollment or commitment required beyond a small fee.
Proven 8y ago
Excellent example of how nothing is as permanent as a temporary government program. One may think Min of Edu would close schools that ran out of students, lay off unnecessary staff and lower taxes, but why would they when they can round up the old, prisoners, immigrants, you name it...
mensetmanusman 8y ago
American society could use more circular educational systems like these, where the retired and the young could benefit in a healthy way from each other’s presence. The young, by being read to and told history; the old, by being surrounded by hope. I have seen some attempts at schools attached to retirement/end of life homes.
_Nat_ 8y ago
In the US, I used to tutor in a college's "Learning Center", where students could come in for free tutoring from staff who'd be hanging out there. One student who came in was very elderly; I don't know her age, but I think she mentioned great-grand children. And what she wanted tutoring on was her math homework. She was studying how to add single-digit numbers. We must've worked on it for like 3 hours. I had no idea that the college taught a course like that; in fact, I strongly suspect that there was something else going on. And I was kinda confused about why she'd even want to learn about how to do basic math like that. But she seemed to find joy in it. She was certainly an enthusiastic student! I don't know if she really walked away with a strong command of the material, but it was good to see someone so happy to have gotten to study.
astannard 8y ago
In the UK we have 'Adult Education' where schools are often used for evening classes for adults. They tend to offer IT training, foreign language studies as well as creative subjects. I have been to a few for learning to make Pottery, and back in the day 'Flash Programming'
theredbox 8y ago
Seriously if this is what a rural school looks like South Korea should consider taking in some immigrants from SEA countries. I am not saying they have to take in immigrants but it's clear they need children and the children need a stable, safe and clean environment.
- profalseidol 8y ago
  > young couples migrate en masse to big cities for better paying jobs. If only farming payed like in tech, I would happily do switch careers. Unfortunately this not how we human beings decided to run our society. Hopefully our French yellow vest comrades can give us revolutionary improvements again like they did in past.

89 points by danso 8y ago

The general idea of using the school to do more than teach children is something that I have wondered about since I was a child (I'm 63). It seems such a shame for all those facilities to stand idle all summer, all weekend, all night. As the article shows there are people who need the basic education that a primary school can give but surely we should go further still and offer everyone in society the chance to go 'back' to school and learn whatever they want. Perhaps to learn some of the things that they thought were dull or inappropriate when they were there the first time around. Men could learn to cook and sew, women could learn to maintain their car or bicycle, Lots of people could benefit from a better grasp of simple mathematics and statistics. Yes, I know that evening classes and further education exist but they are far from universally available and except for classes in demand for craft training (mechanics, electricians, etc.) depend all too much on volunteer effort by teachers or even untrained enthusiats who are already overworked orunderqualified. And lastly, why am I the only one commenting here? Surely life long education should be dear to the heart of all HNers? And worth a comment or two.

automatoney 8y ago
I've never really thought much about using schools to teach adults. I love the idea, although in the United States there'd likely be a lot of pushback from people who oppose more subsidized college. But aside from all of that, I think that the expansion of services that libraries provide would be an excellent way to go about this - many libraries are already getting 3D printers and all sorts of tools, and are consistently adding new programs. And I doubt many people oppose supporting local libraries. Plus, libraries are in some ways better equipped to train people on how to learn on their own (not that they shouldn't also have teachers, but self teaching is definitely a great skill for life long education) Also, the idea of having many ages all together is really nice - something that doesn't even happen much in colleges. It's the sort of thing that helps foster community across generations and helps give people an understanding of more perspectives. Although luckily that kind of interaction can happen a lot across the internet.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > And I doubt many people oppose supporting local libraries. Previous threads on HN (and many other fora) about local libraries in the US, bring out a lot of people who complain about local libraries. They say that libraries smell bad because homeless people sit there all day (and supposedly view pornography on the provided computers, and use drugs in the bathroom). They say that libraries are a waste of taxpayer money now that we have the internet and they should be shut down. I cannot claim to have visited every community in the USA, but it seems to me that a lot of people oppose supporting local libraries.
  - automatoney 8y ago
    I had forgotten about the people who complain about homeless people (which as an aside I would argue is more of an issue with society than with libraries themselves), but I haven't seen too much of the "we have the internet and they should be shut down" arguments. It seems that those opposed to libraries on this site have likely forgotten the Hacker part of Hacker News. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#The_hacker_ethics
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    From my observations, it seems that the vocal opposition is far outnumbered by the quiet supporters. My small town library is expanding, not simply for more room for books, but also to make it a nicer space for events and programs open to the community. The internet situation out here is also pretty bad (I use ubifi), so it's handy for those who are low income to access the internet without using data from their cell phone.
  - tooltalk 8y ago
    I used to work for NYPL years back. Apparently there are also gangs having sex (eg, gang initiation) at some branches -- this topic was actually covered during my orientation. I agree many branches are essentially day-time shelters for homeless (sure, they smell really bad) and drug addicts. Not sure about "shutting them down," but they try to justify their existence even in the age of the internet and wireless communication by claiming that they serve various unheeded needs of local community other agencies are unable to provide. Are they really a waste of taxpayers money? Well, most librarians are unions members and they are not for the most part a drain on NYC finance -- we are talking about NYC where NYPD officers can make $150+K or sky-is-the-limit earnings for MTA contractors. I think the city has much greater issues at its hand, but the library system is far from frugal or efficient, IMO. Some work for the library because they share and believe in the mission and service they provide to community, but I suspect many don't care about that.
njepa 8y ago
I think it is mostly a funding issue. In Sweden there is municipal adult education. About 4% of the population ages 20 to 64 attended last year, with the median age (at least previously) being around 30. It is however tuition free and grants you a government student loan for living costs. Of course soon enough that loan might not actually cover rent.
1e-9 8y ago
With the rapid pace of technological advancement, I think adult education will become increasingly important as labor needs evolve, although online courses are probably a better route for adults. Seems like there would be significant logistical and security issues associated with using facilities currently configured for small children (for example, furniture size, possible overlap of adult/child presence).
Entalpi 8y ago
Atleast here in Sweden (Stockholm, big city) schools are usually used on evenings (languages courses for adults, such things) and on weekends.
Waterluvian 8y ago
Fwiw there's numerous public schools in my city that run free programs at night and in the summer for "continuing education."
bane 8y ago
Maybe I live in a strange area, but we've always had continuing education offered by the county and various other local government type organizations. They offer everything from languang and reading instruction to welding, pottery, fitness and woodwork at very reasonable prices. We get two or three catalogs in the mail a few weeks before every scheduled session starts. My wife and I are currently taking the second session of an art program and take regular fitness classes every week. The local library also offers a large number of classes in various subjects for various ages. Classes use a mix of facilities, but I've spent quite a few evenings crammed into an elementary school desk. I've moved around a bit in my state and have always had this kind of offering available, even in quite rural areas. Is this not the norm?
basetop 8y ago
If there was demand for the services ( cooking, bike maintenance, simple math ), I'm sure schools would offer them. The point is who is going to pay to keep these schools open and pay the salaries of the teachers if people aren't willing to pay for these services? Besides, with the internet, learning to cook, maintain bike or even basic math is available to most people. It's how I learned to cook. And finally, the Hacker ethos is fairly anti-"schooling". Most hackers view school as indoctrination centers rather than centers of education. The idea of a "hacker" is being a curious free-thinker who tinkers and tries to learn things on their own. Maybe we should give everyone access to the internet so that they can seek the knowledge they want?
nkrisc 8y ago
Honestly if I could go back and take highschool trigonometry classes again I would. I learned enough that I can use a trig calculator to find what I need, but I'd love to go back and really learn the principles and the why. I had no interest in it back then, it just took me an extra decade and a half to get interested. I suppose some community colleges might have something like that. I know there are some that offer language classes on 10 week cycles with no other enrollment or commitment required beyond a small fee.

Proven 8y ago

Excellent example of how nothing is as permanent as a temporary government program. One may think Min of Edu would close schools that ran out of students, lay off unnecessary staff and lower taxes, but why would they when they can round up the old, prisoners, immigrants, you name it...

mensetmanusman 8y ago

American society could use more circular educational systems like these, where the retired and the young could benefit in a healthy way from each other’s presence. The young, by being read to and told history; the old, by being surrounded by hope. I have seen some attempts at schools attached to retirement/end of life homes.

_Nat_ 8y ago

In the US, I used to tutor in a college's "Learning Center", where students could come in for free tutoring from staff who'd be hanging out there. One student who came in was very elderly; I don't know her age, but I think she mentioned great-grand children. And what she wanted tutoring on was her math homework. She was studying how to add single-digit numbers. We must've worked on it for like 3 hours. I had no idea that the college taught a course like that; in fact, I strongly suspect that there was something else going on. And I was kinda confused about why she'd even want to learn about how to do basic math like that. But she seemed to find joy in it. She was certainly an enthusiastic student! I don't know if she really walked away with a strong command of the material, but it was good to see someone so happy to have gotten to study.

astannard 8y ago

In the UK we have 'Adult Education' where schools are often used for evening classes for adults. They tend to offer IT training, foreign language studies as well as creative subjects. I have been to a few for learning to make Pottery, and back in the day 'Flash Programming'

theredbox 8y ago

Seriously if this is what a rural school looks like South Korea should consider taking in some immigrants from SEA countries. I am not saying they have to take in immigrants but it's clear they need children and the children need a stable, safe and clean environment.

profalseidol 8y ago
> young couples migrate en masse to big cities for better paying jobs. If only farming payed like in tech, I would happily do switch careers. Unfortunately this not how we human beings decided to run our society. Hopefully our French yellow vest comrades can give us revolutionary improvements again like they did in past.