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In many cases you're paying people to create the text of the laws themselves. Also, how is "paying people to make PowerPoint presentations and talking points a

by geofft 8y ago

In many cases you're paying people to create the text of the laws themselves. Also, how is "paying people to make PowerPoint presentations and talking points about proposed legislation so that legislators can be convinced that a certain law should be passed" not just a form of "paying to pass a certain law"? When I set out to write complex software, I generally collect data, make arguments, write design docs / white papers, and occasionally make PowerPoint presentations about how the software should be designed and why; that's part of the process of meaningfully developing software just as much as banging out some code in a text editor is. I'm still a software developer, and when the company is paying me to make presentations and arguments in favor of getting software developed, they are absolutely paying me to develop software. (Also, what's wrong with seeking to delegitimize the status quo? In other contexts, don't we call that "disruption"? It might be a falsehood, but we can debate the substance of a claim without attacking the motives of the people making a claim.)

Fezzik 8y ago
The entire legislature still has to vote on the law though, and lobbyists are never meeting with all, or even more than a few, specific representatives. I would say a much bigger problem is the towing of the party line - whatever senior members propose, junior members vote for, else they risk being ousted from their party. Also, I have always found the blaming of lobbyists odd: I am confused by the blaming of lobbyists for presenting their agenda to a legislator, who then promotes that agenda, leading to the passing of a law that is pro-that-agenda. I would place all the blame on the legislators. It’s like, if I approach my boss and ask for excessive raises over and over, and wine and dine her, and then I keep getting those raises, should my co-workers be far more mad at me or my boss? It seems to me it is my boss’s fault for giving the raise, as she holds all the real power, not my fault for asking. She has the duty to decline if the request is improper. I do not believe I have a duty to not make my case, despite probably being scummy. What I am doing may be frowned upon, but if my boss is swayed by a few compliments and a donation to her charity of choice, she probably should not be the boss. The same goes for legislators - stop voting for the dummies with no scruples, and stop thinking it is the fault of anyone other than the people who actually vote for these hypothetical bills that result in so many one-sided, pro one-company-or-religion-or-whateveror, awful laws. I personally feel lobbyists are scummy, but I fail to see them as blameworthy in regards to the laws we actually end up with.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > I have always found the blaming of lobbyists odd I think most people consider lobbying a serious problem because of the power discrepancy involved. You and I can't effectively lobby. The entities that can tend to be the ones who are already inordinately powerful. The result is that lobbying overall tends to disenfranchise ordinary citizens. It is inherently corrosive to our system of government.

by geofft 8y ago

Fezzik 8y ago

The entire legislature still has to vote on the law though, and lobbyists are never meeting with all, or even more than a few, specific representatives. I would say a much bigger problem is the towing of the party line - whatever senior members propose, junior members vote for, else they risk being ousted from their party. Also, I have always found the blaming of lobbyists odd: I am confused by the blaming of lobbyists for presenting their agenda to a legislator, who then promotes that agenda, leading to the passing of a law that is pro-that-agenda. I would place all the blame on the legislators. It’s like, if I approach my boss and ask for excessive raises over and over, and wine and dine her, and then I keep getting those raises, should my co-workers be far more mad at me or my boss? It seems to me it is my boss’s fault for giving the raise, as she holds all the real power, not my fault for asking. She has the duty to decline if the request is improper. I do not believe I have a duty to not make my case, despite probably being scummy. What I am doing may be frowned upon, but if my boss is swayed by a few compliments and a donation to her charity of choice, she probably should not be the boss. The same goes for legislators - stop voting for the dummies with no scruples, and stop thinking it is the fault of anyone other than the people who actually vote for these hypothetical bills that result in so many one-sided, pro one-company-or-religion-or-whateveror, awful laws. I personally feel lobbyists are scummy, but I fail to see them as blameworthy in regards to the laws we actually end up with.

JohnFen 8y ago
> I have always found the blaming of lobbyists odd I think most people consider lobbying a serious problem because of the power discrepancy involved. You and I can't effectively lobby. The entities that can tend to be the ones who are already inordinately powerful. The result is that lobbying overall tends to disenfranchise ordinary citizens. It is inherently corrosive to our system of government.