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Here is what you dont get,the idea is to give them a death blow. Nobody is interested in giving FB a warning. If you ask me, prison time for execs in addition

Here is what you dont get,the idea is to give them a death blow. Nobody is interested in giving FB a warning. If you ask me, prison time for execs in addition to at least $10B yearly fine makes sense. They intentionally did things that harmed millions of people, the idea is not to just make them think twice before they do something like that again,but to make the message loud and clear: "that move is a fatal move". Not just for FB but for all others who make money out of user surveillance (snapchat,linkedin,google,etc...). We don't want to give them a risk they can calculate and evaluate,we want to give them a risk as clear as death, a risk no company will even bring up in any meeting.

gonzo41 8y ago
Remember when VW did all that computer magic with emissions controls. Only a mid level engineering manager went to jail. The diesel emissions will probably cause cancer in people in the streets. CEO's need to start going to the gaol long term , and we need to start banning those involved from being able to run, own, or hold shares in corporations outside of blind trusts ever again.
- amluto 8y ago
  You’re out of date: https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2
- scrooched_moose 8y ago
  You're far out of date on that story. https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/06/oliver-schmidt-jailed-volkswagen-emissions-scam-seven-years https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/06/oliver-schm... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-stadler/head-of-vws-audi-arrested-in-germany-over-diesel-scandal-idUSKBN1JE0R3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-stad... https://money.cnn.com/2018/04/20/news/porsche-arrest-volkswagen-diesel-emissions-scandal/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/04/20/news/porsche-arrest-volkswa...
- user5994461 8y ago
  The car industry support hundreds of thousands of jobs all over the world and in the respective countries of each manufacturer. There would never be any strong action taken against them, this would be hurting the government who took it and its people. On a side note. Big internet companies will never enjoy the same level of political support. They don't support any job and don't pay any tax where they get their money from. It's a bunch of nerds in the west coast and that's barely caricaturing. If anything, the bigger fines will come from Europe rather than Washington, because politics.
  - rock_hard 8y ago
    60 million advertisers use Facebook to run ads...I am pretty confident that they have a strong economic interest in the government being nice to Facebook.
- kerng 8y ago
  Nope, investigations just take really long and courts are slow. That's why for FB the downfall is not yet really visible - might take another 12 months.
zaroth 8y ago
Maybe I’m out of sync with what really happened with Cambridge Analytica? As I understand it, CA scraped Facebook and retained the data in violation of Facebook’s ToS. This was not a secret agreement with CA, this was CA using a publically documented API which was returning the data it was designed to return, but CA using and retaining the data improperly. Later Facebook decided to significantly restrict the data that apps can pull out of their system (arguably making the system more closed and harder to compete with, but protecting that data from misuse). They exposed too much of the social graph through their developer APIs. I can see an alternate universe where they are fined for exposing too little. Like I said, I don’t use Facebook so I don’t care much about them. I don’t think they add a lot of value in the world, but their billion plus users must feel differently. But I don’t understand why, on the basis of Cambridge Analytica, the company should be fined out of existence. You can hate Facebook, and you can not use it if you do hate it. But there are a billion plus people who apparently don’t hate Facebook and might be damaged by Facebook being dismantled by the government.
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  "ToS violation" is a lame copout, especially since the CA events happened long after the 2011 decree https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/facebook-settles-ftc-charges-it-deceived-consumers-failing-keep https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/faceb... . As a former president said, "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again" As humans we are certainly willing to give others extra chances to do right by people, but at some point people realize that the bad actors will never rectify their behavior and should be stopped. I'd personally vote for jail time for executives.
- luckylion 8y ago
  > But I don’t understand why, on the basis of Cambridge Analytica, the company should be fined out of existence. I'm with you that it shouldn't kill them, but it needs to really hurt so they take better care (and not do illegal stuff in the future). I don't think something like this does. It's annoying, yes. Consider a similar scenario where a food or drug manufacturer doesn't check their raw materials and poisons a bunch of people. Should their supplier make sure that they don't sell them poisonous stuff? Absolutely. Do they themselves bear the responsibility to make sure that nothing bad happens? I believe so, so by skipping their own checks to save a few bucks, it's their fault. And you can be quite sure that in such a case, there won't just be a small fine - there will be a fine, and production halt with a lengthy and expensive re-certification, because the processes they had in place are obviously flawed. Yeah, FB doesn't produce food, so those regulations don't apply to them. I don't really subscribe to the theory, but there are many who believe that they have the power to sway elections - that certainly puts them in the same ballpark as the company that provides your aspirin or pizza sauce.
kodz4 8y ago
The problem with this argument is there is no great evidence it has any effect. Definitely doesn't on the next bunch of 20 year old Zuckerbergs that comes along, not knowing what the fuck they are doing and doing it anyway. Risk takers and driven people aren't thinking about punishment. By definition. But that drive can be channeled in positive directions. Punishment is really a pretty hopeless method of doing it. Its why bombing random goat herders for 20 years hasn't reduced the number of people who want to blow themselves and others up. The focus on punishment is a distraction. It just makes everyone involved channel their energy into playing defense and that delays the real fixes. Focus should be on getting them to clean up the mess, rather than sending them to jail. Social media and the news media need a whole lot of re-architecting. And the focus really should be on what that new architecture needs to be.

gonzo41 8y ago

Remember when VW did all that computer magic with emissions controls. Only a mid level engineering manager went to jail. The diesel emissions will probably cause cancer in people in the streets. CEO's need to start going to the gaol long term , and we need to start banning those involved from being able to run, own, or hold shares in corporations outside of blind trusts ever again.

amluto 8y ago
You’re out of date: https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2
scrooched_moose 8y ago
You're far out of date on that story. https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://www.apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/06/oliver-schmidt-jailed-volkswagen-emissions-scam-seven-years https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/06/oliver-schm... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-stadler/head-of-vws-audi-arrested-in-germany-over-diesel-scandal-idUSKBN1JE0R3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-stad... https://money.cnn.com/2018/04/20/news/porsche-arrest-volkswagen-diesel-emissions-scandal/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/04/20/news/porsche-arrest-volkswa...
user5994461 8y ago
The car industry support hundreds of thousands of jobs all over the world and in the respective countries of each manufacturer. There would never be any strong action taken against them, this would be hurting the government who took it and its people. On a side note. Big internet companies will never enjoy the same level of political support. They don't support any job and don't pay any tax where they get their money from. It's a bunch of nerds in the west coast and that's barely caricaturing. If anything, the bigger fines will come from Europe rather than Washington, because politics.
- rock_hard 8y ago
  60 million advertisers use Facebook to run ads...I am pretty confident that they have a strong economic interest in the government being nice to Facebook.
kerng 8y ago
Nope, investigations just take really long and courts are slow. That's why for FB the downfall is not yet really visible - might take another 12 months.

zaroth 8y ago

Maybe I’m out of sync with what really happened with Cambridge Analytica? As I understand it, CA scraped Facebook and retained the data in violation of Facebook’s ToS. This was not a secret agreement with CA, this was CA using a publically documented API which was returning the data it was designed to return, but CA using and retaining the data improperly. Later Facebook decided to significantly restrict the data that apps can pull out of their system (arguably making the system more closed and harder to compete with, but protecting that data from misuse). They exposed too much of the social graph through their developer APIs. I can see an alternate universe where they are fined for exposing too little. Like I said, I don’t use Facebook so I don’t care much about them. I don’t think they add a lot of value in the world, but their billion plus users must feel differently. But I don’t understand why, on the basis of Cambridge Analytica, the company should be fined out of existence. You can hate Facebook, and you can not use it if you do hate it. But there are a billion plus people who apparently don’t hate Facebook and might be damaged by Facebook being dismantled by the government.

TAForObvReasons 8y ago
"ToS violation" is a lame copout, especially since the CA events happened long after the 2011 decree https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/facebook-settles-ftc-charges-it-deceived-consumers-failing-keep https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/11/faceb... . As a former president said, "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again" As humans we are certainly willing to give others extra chances to do right by people, but at some point people realize that the bad actors will never rectify their behavior and should be stopped. I'd personally vote for jail time for executives.
luckylion 8y ago
> But I don’t understand why, on the basis of Cambridge Analytica, the company should be fined out of existence. I'm with you that it shouldn't kill them, but it needs to really hurt so they take better care (and not do illegal stuff in the future). I don't think something like this does. It's annoying, yes. Consider a similar scenario where a food or drug manufacturer doesn't check their raw materials and poisons a bunch of people. Should their supplier make sure that they don't sell them poisonous stuff? Absolutely. Do they themselves bear the responsibility to make sure that nothing bad happens? I believe so, so by skipping their own checks to save a few bucks, it's their fault. And you can be quite sure that in such a case, there won't just be a small fine - there will be a fine, and production halt with a lengthy and expensive re-certification, because the processes they had in place are obviously flawed. Yeah, FB doesn't produce food, so those regulations don't apply to them. I don't really subscribe to the theory, but there are many who believe that they have the power to sway elections - that certainly puts them in the same ballpark as the company that provides your aspirin or pizza sauce.

kodz4 8y ago

The problem with this argument is there is no great evidence it has any effect. Definitely doesn't on the next bunch of 20 year old Zuckerbergs that comes along, not knowing what the fuck they are doing and doing it anyway. Risk takers and driven people aren't thinking about punishment. By definition. But that drive can be channeled in positive directions. Punishment is really a pretty hopeless method of doing it. Its why bombing random goat herders for 20 years hasn't reduced the number of people who want to blow themselves and others up. The focus on punishment is a distraction. It just makes everyone involved channel their energy into playing defense and that delays the real fixes. Focus should be on getting them to clean up the mess, rather than sending them to jail. Social media and the news media need a whole lot of re-architecting. And the focus really should be on what that new architecture needs to be.