5 ms·

Agreed about the JC comment but as for the title, sexist biases in other cultures shouldn’t be accepted here just because the sexism is well-intentioned, which

Agreed about the JC comment but as for the title, sexist biases in other cultures shouldn’t be accepted here just because the sexism is well-intentioned, which it often is. Likely the young woman was gender referenced to emphasize the “surprising, unexpected” outcome. Bottom line high school males would more likely be described as “budding mathematicians” or simply “students“ than “schoolboys” and that is a double standard.

dang 7y ago
> sexist biases in other cultures > sexism > Likely You're assuming that you know that "school girl/boy" is a demeaning phrase everywhere in the world. Are you sure? I doubt you should be. For us, "school girl/boy" is archaic and sounds patronizing, but in other places it may simply mean student. In many languages "school girl/boy" is the standard term for "student, but not yet in university", while "student" is used only for university students. If that was the meaning here, the submitter probably used the word to highlight that Britney Crystal Gallivan accomplished what she did while still in school. Imagine if that were so, and then they meet with a nasty rebuke and accusations of sexism. Does that help make HN the welcoming place we want it to be? How would you feel in that position? If you look upthread to that aggressive snapback response, it flat-out declares "That designates an elementary or pre-teen woman, not someone 17 years old." That is almost certainly wrong. Had the author added "Where I come from", then it would be true—and it would also be clear why they were wrong to be aggressive, rather than inquisitive, about the word. Similarly, your comment says "high school males would more likely be described as XYZ...and that is a double standard". That's even more relative to your particular language community, which I'm guessing the submitter does not belong to. Most likely, crossed language wires created an insult where there wasn't one. At a minimum, prabhupant deserved the benefit of the doubt from you guys—and the site guidelines require that you give it (please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). Alas, how difficult it is in practice to actually do. Why dwell on this? Because conflict on HN frequently arises between people who don't realize how they're talking across cultural/national divides. On the internet, people assume the other person belongs to the same group as they do, which makes it easy to interpret others as assholes when they say X—where X is outrageous on my side of the divide. But it's a mistake to assume a universal meaning. A lot of this misunderstanding comes, ironically, from how well HN users all over the world have mastered English. In person, once we hear an accent or see differences, interpretation recalibrates. But on HN, where that data isn't present, we default to assuming that the other person is not only a native speaker, but lives in the same region as we do. Then we get mad because they sound like an asshole of our tribe, rather than a decent person from another.
- abalone 7y ago
  To follow your logic, if someone posted an article with the word “negro” in the title, without other racist content, would you let it stand unedited because maybe they’re from one of the cultures where that word carries no mal-intent? You make a fair point about making HN a “welcoming” place but your argument exclusively focuses on the poster’s feelings. There’s another audience to consider how to welcome: the marginalized people in HN’s primary language community that may perceive this use of language as a micro-aggression. I concede that we should not assume bad intentions on the part of folks who post unfortunately worded stuff on HN. But I believe you should also concede that poster intent is not the primary consideration when deciding how to make HN a welcoming and supportive community.
  - dang 7y ago
    No way to answer that question in general. It would depend on the specific situation. What if it were a historical piece? Should we sanitize that? What if the author were black and chose that word on purpose? Would it be our place to edit it out? I didn't make any argument about intent being the primary consideration. There are many considerations. My point was much simpler: you guys jumped on prabhupant too quickly and uncharitably, and we all need to restrain ourselves from doing that. What makes you think that HN has a "primary language community"? Only 10% of HN users are in or near Silicon Valley. Half are in the US, which already has many communities. The rest are all over the world. I don't think many generalizations are likely to be valid here.
    - abalone 7y ago
      You make fair points but at the same time are avoiding the larger question. What are the criteria guiding the decision? You've mentioned only one, the intent of the poster -- or more specifically the most charitably possible intent. Are there conditions under which HN would should modify offensive language to some communities? You outline no other concrete specifics that would counterbalance globally possible poster intent. So I'll restate my challenge: If this very same article, but concerning a black mathematician instead of a female one, were posted with the word "negro" included in the title by an HN poster of uncertain possibly non-U.S. origin, would it go unedited? Stipulating that there are some locales in which this word is inoffensive.

dang 7y ago

> sexist biases in other cultures > sexism > Likely You're assuming that you know that "school girl/boy" is a demeaning phrase everywhere in the world. Are you sure? I doubt you should be. For us, "school girl/boy" is archaic and sounds patronizing, but in other places it may simply mean student. In many languages "school girl/boy" is the standard term for "student, but not yet in university", while "student" is used only for university students. If that was the meaning here, the submitter probably used the word to highlight that Britney Crystal Gallivan accomplished what she did while still in school. Imagine if that were so, and then they meet with a nasty rebuke and accusations of sexism. Does that help make HN the welcoming place we want it to be? How would you feel in that position? If you look upthread to that aggressive snapback response, it flat-out declares "That designates an elementary or pre-teen woman, not someone 17 years old." That is almost certainly wrong. Had the author added "Where I come from", then it would be true—and it would also be clear why they were wrong to be aggressive, rather than inquisitive, about the word. Similarly, your comment says "high school males would more likely be described as XYZ...and that is a double standard". That's even more relative to your particular language community, which I'm guessing the submitter does not belong to. Most likely, crossed language wires created an insult where there wasn't one. At a minimum, prabhupant deserved the benefit of the doubt from you guys—and the site guidelines require that you give it (please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). Alas, how difficult it is in practice to actually do. Why dwell on this? Because conflict on HN frequently arises between people who don't realize how they're talking across cultural/national divides. On the internet, people assume the other person belongs to the same group as they do, which makes it easy to interpret others as assholes when they say X—where X is outrageous on my side of the divide. But it's a mistake to assume a universal meaning. A lot of this misunderstanding comes, ironically, from how well HN users all over the world have mastered English. In person, once we hear an accent or see differences, interpretation recalibrates. But on HN, where that data isn't present, we default to assuming that the other person is not only a native speaker, but lives in the same region as we do. Then we get mad because they sound like an asshole of our tribe, rather than a decent person from another.

abalone 7y ago
To follow your logic, if someone posted an article with the word “negro” in the title, without other racist content, would you let it stand unedited because maybe they’re from one of the cultures where that word carries no mal-intent? You make a fair point about making HN a “welcoming” place but your argument exclusively focuses on the poster’s feelings. There’s another audience to consider how to welcome: the marginalized people in HN’s primary language community that may perceive this use of language as a micro-aggression. I concede that we should not assume bad intentions on the part of folks who post unfortunately worded stuff on HN. But I believe you should also concede that poster intent is not the primary consideration when deciding how to make HN a welcoming and supportive community.
- dang 7y ago
  No way to answer that question in general. It would depend on the specific situation. What if it were a historical piece? Should we sanitize that? What if the author were black and chose that word on purpose? Would it be our place to edit it out? I didn't make any argument about intent being the primary consideration. There are many considerations. My point was much simpler: you guys jumped on prabhupant too quickly and uncharitably, and we all need to restrain ourselves from doing that. What makes you think that HN has a "primary language community"? Only 10% of HN users are in or near Silicon Valley. Half are in the US, which already has many communities. The rest are all over the world. I don't think many generalizations are likely to be valid here.
  - abalone 7y ago
    You make fair points but at the same time are avoiding the larger question. What are the criteria guiding the decision? You've mentioned only one, the intent of the poster -- or more specifically the most charitably possible intent. Are there conditions under which HN would should modify offensive language to some communities? You outline no other concrete specifics that would counterbalance globally possible poster intent. So I'll restate my challenge: If this very same article, but concerning a black mathematician instead of a female one, were posted with the word "negro" included in the title by an HN poster of uncertain possibly non-U.S. origin, would it go unedited? Stipulating that there are some locales in which this word is inoffensive.