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Never, in the history of the United States, was it ever common for "ordinary private citizens" to speak their mind without fear of consequence. False. Me in gr

Never, in the history of the United States, was it ever common for "ordinary private citizens" to speak their mind without fear of consequence. False. Me in graduate school in the 90's in South Carolina. My professor friend in the 90's just after she got tenure. American culture, while giving lip-service to freedom of speech, has always punished those who venture to criticize the status quo. No. Certain subsets/factions of this society have done that. There are many Americans who gave far more than lip-service to freedom of speech. My father was one such person. Many, many people in this society have been like that. It's in the past several years, that the mainstream media as a faction has turned against this idea. In my youth, they were among the loudest proponents. When I was young, it was the hostile Moral Majority types who were against freedom of speech. It always seems to be moralist authoritarians who claim they're not moralist authoritarians.

krapp 8y ago
>False. Me in graduate school in the 90's in South Carolina. My professor friend in the 90's just after she got tenure. Ok. I'll see your data set of two and raise you African Americans, communists, atheists, feminists, Jews, Muslims, war protesters, pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-life, pro-choice, etc. American history is full of examples of ordinary private citizens meeting consequences for their speech, sometimes minor, sometimes violent. That you, personally, and one person you know may have been able to transgress some undefined social or political norms without consequence doesn't really prove anything, except perhaps that you haven't really transgressed anything hard enough for anyone to care. >No. Certain subsets/factions of this society have done that. Society is nothing but subsets and factions. There has always been a limit to what people within a community will tolerate, even in the name of "freedom of speech."
- stcredzero 8y ago
  atheists, feminists, Jews My friend is an atheist, feminist, and ethnically Jewish. My wife's father is an ardent Communist. American history is full of examples of ordinary private citizens meeting consequences for their speech, sometimes minor, sometimes violent. American history is full of times and places where people of different views would be accepted. There has always been a limit to what people within a community will tolerate, even in the name of "freedom of speech." There is a big difference between today and the 90's. There is far less tolerance and actual discourse today.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  There has always been a limit to what people within a community will tolerate, even in the name of "freedom of speech." It used to be a widespread virtue for people to cite "freedom of speech," let people say their piece,then just go on with your own life. The people who were going around trying to persecute others were bigots trying to exclude Jews and Asians from their clubs. (Happened to my family.) The people who were going around to people private lives with toxic behavior justified by their beliefs were people like the Klan and the Westboro Baptist church. Now, people proclaim as if it's "mainstream," that it's a virtue to give people "consequences" and engage in the same kind of impingement on private lives, exclusion, and active persecution those bigots once engaged in, then call it "justice." It's quite a huge difference in society. Such active persecution used to be the sole province of widely recognized fringe bigots. Now, it's supported by politicians at the national level and it's claimed by people who purport to be mainstream and normal. It's no longer a live and let live society. We should be suspicious of those who would engage in an Orwellian retcon of the past, and pretend it was always so.
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    Elon Musk made a baseless accusation that an experienced cave diver who criticized Musk's rescue plans was a pedophile. In public, and with millions of followers hanging on Elon's every word. Now you're here with rustled jimmies acting like there's something wrong with society, and with me, for thinking that no, he should not be able to make such baseless statements without consequences. You are what is wrong with society. Your pretend-utopia where anyone can say anything doesn't exist. In reality, when someone like Musk calls a man a pedophile, some people go ahead and believe it. The cave diver faces consequences: He may lose his job, his friends, even his life if a vigilante takes matters into their own hands. And especially so if there is no pushback against Musk. And if you leave the pushback up to the victims of Musk's rhetoric, realize that they are outgunned by millions of dollars and millions of followers. What value is truth in today's social media? Let's move on from Musk. In your world, people can launch conspiracy theories about sex rings in pizza parlours, without consequence of any kind. For them. But the pizza parlour has a consequence if people stop going there. The pizza parlour has a consequence if armed vigilantes show up to "investigate." This happened. Speech has consequences whether you pretend it doesn't or not. It's not enough to imagine a nice world where everything works perfectly provided all of the people in that world act in good faith. You have to think about what happens when people don't act in good faith. In your world, other people get thrown under the bus, and you either haven't considered that, or don't care about their consequences.
braythwayt 8y ago
Sorry, you are looking in the rear-view mirror with rose-coloured glasses. George Carlin went to the supreme court arguing for the right to tell dirty jokes on television. He lost. Before that, MLK told America uncomfortable truths. He was considered a dangerous threat to America and eventually assassinated. Athletes who raised fists or kneeled have been ostracized, whether in 1968 or 2018, fifty years later. This idea of absolute freedom of speech is something that has only ever been for privileged people, people who have tenure, or powerful interests protecting them. Everyone else has had to suffer the consequences, up to and including losing their lives. And this is not some nee phenomenon foisted upon America by SJWs in the 2010s and moralizing Christians in the 1980s. It has always been a place where there is one rule for the powerful, and another rule for the oppressed.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  This idea of absolute freedom of speech is something that has only ever been for privileged people, people who have tenure, or powerful interests protecting them. I'm not talking about (the obvious strawman) of absolute freedom of speech even across all of society down to the last opinion. I'm just talking about a live and let live society. And this is not some new phenomenon foisted upon America by SJWs in the 2010s and moralizing Christians in the 1980s. Right. It's the same old phenomenon, foisted upon us by moralizing Christians in the 1980s and moralizing SJWs in the 2010s.

krapp 8y ago

>False. Me in graduate school in the 90's in South Carolina. My professor friend in the 90's just after she got tenure. Ok. I'll see your data set of two and raise you African Americans, communists, atheists, feminists, Jews, Muslims, war protesters, pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-life, pro-choice, etc. American history is full of examples of ordinary private citizens meeting consequences for their speech, sometimes minor, sometimes violent. That you, personally, and one person you know may have been able to transgress some undefined social or political norms without consequence doesn't really prove anything, except perhaps that you haven't really transgressed anything hard enough for anyone to care. >No. Certain subsets/factions of this society have done that. Society is nothing but subsets and factions. There has always been a limit to what people within a community will tolerate, even in the name of "freedom of speech."

stcredzero 8y ago
atheists, feminists, Jews My friend is an atheist, feminist, and ethnically Jewish. My wife's father is an ardent Communist. American history is full of examples of ordinary private citizens meeting consequences for their speech, sometimes minor, sometimes violent. American history is full of times and places where people of different views would be accepted. There has always been a limit to what people within a community will tolerate, even in the name of "freedom of speech." There is a big difference between today and the 90's. There is far less tolerance and actual discourse today.
stcredzero 8y ago
There has always been a limit to what people within a community will tolerate, even in the name of "freedom of speech." It used to be a widespread virtue for people to cite "freedom of speech," let people say their piece,then just go on with your own life. The people who were going around trying to persecute others were bigots trying to exclude Jews and Asians from their clubs. (Happened to my family.) The people who were going around to people private lives with toxic behavior justified by their beliefs were people like the Klan and the Westboro Baptist church. Now, people proclaim as if it's "mainstream," that it's a virtue to give people "consequences" and engage in the same kind of impingement on private lives, exclusion, and active persecution those bigots once engaged in, then call it "justice." It's quite a huge difference in society. Such active persecution used to be the sole province of widely recognized fringe bigots. Now, it's supported by politicians at the national level and it's claimed by people who purport to be mainstream and normal. It's no longer a live and let live society. We should be suspicious of those who would engage in an Orwellian retcon of the past, and pretend it was always so.
- braythwayt 8y ago
  Elon Musk made a baseless accusation that an experienced cave diver who criticized Musk's rescue plans was a pedophile. In public, and with millions of followers hanging on Elon's every word. Now you're here with rustled jimmies acting like there's something wrong with society, and with me, for thinking that no, he should not be able to make such baseless statements without consequences. You are what is wrong with society. Your pretend-utopia where anyone can say anything doesn't exist. In reality, when someone like Musk calls a man a pedophile, some people go ahead and believe it. The cave diver faces consequences: He may lose his job, his friends, even his life if a vigilante takes matters into their own hands. And especially so if there is no pushback against Musk. And if you leave the pushback up to the victims of Musk's rhetoric, realize that they are outgunned by millions of dollars and millions of followers. What value is truth in today's social media? Let's move on from Musk. In your world, people can launch conspiracy theories about sex rings in pizza parlours, without consequence of any kind. For them. But the pizza parlour has a consequence if people stop going there. The pizza parlour has a consequence if armed vigilantes show up to "investigate." This happened. Speech has consequences whether you pretend it doesn't or not. It's not enough to imagine a nice world where everything works perfectly provided all of the people in that world act in good faith. You have to think about what happens when people don't act in good faith. In your world, other people get thrown under the bus, and you either haven't considered that, or don't care about their consequences.

braythwayt 8y ago

Sorry, you are looking in the rear-view mirror with rose-coloured glasses. George Carlin went to the supreme court arguing for the right to tell dirty jokes on television. He lost. Before that, MLK told America uncomfortable truths. He was considered a dangerous threat to America and eventually assassinated. Athletes who raised fists or kneeled have been ostracized, whether in 1968 or 2018, fifty years later. This idea of absolute freedom of speech is something that has only ever been for privileged people, people who have tenure, or powerful interests protecting them. Everyone else has had to suffer the consequences, up to and including losing their lives. And this is not some nee phenomenon foisted upon America by SJWs in the 2010s and moralizing Christians in the 1980s. It has always been a place where there is one rule for the powerful, and another rule for the oppressed.

stcredzero 8y ago
This idea of absolute freedom of speech is something that has only ever been for privileged people, people who have tenure, or powerful interests protecting them. I'm not talking about (the obvious strawman) of absolute freedom of speech even across all of society down to the last opinion. I'm just talking about a live and let live society. And this is not some new phenomenon foisted upon America by SJWs in the 2010s and moralizing Christians in the 1980s. Right. It's the same old phenomenon, foisted upon us by moralizing Christians in the 1980s and moralizing SJWs in the 2010s.